RideT61

Does that mean that if I arrive midweek I should have no problem getting a spot?

I'm heading down to the Valley in early October and was wondering if anyone had any idea how busy Camp 4 is during that time. I know several of the other campgrounds close down in mid Sept. Is it likely I'll be able to get a spot in Camp 4 if I'm not there bight and early (7am I think) to get a spot. If I don't, are the other CG's usually full in Oct? Any info is appreciated, thanks for the help.

The Witches Tower has a fun, but fairly short, route that is 5.7 and has twin hand crack. It also has a really easy 5.4 route. Both are in the Becky Guide

The permit has been claimed. Have fun Dave!

Just as an FYI if your unsure how the permit thing works. You don't have to stay all 5 days, although I would prefer it. But you do have to pick up the permit by 9am Wednesday. Also, the permit is good for 4 people but you can obvoiusly take fewer.

Due to a death in the family I'll be out of town and unable to use my Enchantment permit. It is for the Snow Lakes region from this Wednesday the 13th to Sunday the 17th. Hopefully someone can take advantage of the incredible forcast and get some climbing in. All I ask is you post a good TR on CC.com when you get back. Anyone interested PM me. Tom

Cool, thanks. Have a good 4th!

I went out with a girl who said, and I quote... "Oh, I don't read!.

I'm gonna climb the West Ridge of Stuart with my girlfriend. Hopefully the weather will hold and she will be fooled into thinking alpine climbing is fun.

Anyone been up there lately, will I need boots or will approach shoes be sufficient?

I like the Marmot ATV, but anything made of Shoeller Dryskin is good.

Good deal if it were a true softshell. Unless I'm mistaken that jacket is made with a laminate and will therefore be waterproof but no more breathable (and probably less so) than most hardshells. If you need a softshell, make sure it is one by blowing through it and making sure you can feel some air on the other side. If you can't, your just buying a heavy, soft feeling hardshell.

Snodger, Good question. The debate surrounding which WPB fabric is the most breathable is a very difficult one. The problem stems from the fact that there are several different test methods for measuring how breathable a fabric is. Unfortunately, the results from the various test methods are not comparable. As a result, companies that make fabrics use either the test method that makes their fabric look the best, or the one Goretex uses (because Goretex is the 800lb gorilla in the industry and everyone is compared to them). Unfortunately many of these test methods do not correlate well with use in the real word. The people I work with and I have come to the conclusion that the two test methods that correspond best to use in the field (we are all climbers and have suffered quite a bit to figure this out) are the "ASTM-E96-upright cup method" and "NATIC DMPV" with the DMPV test being the best. Unfortunately nobody uses these tests because of the wonderful world of marketing and other forces within the industry (Goretex). Ican tell you that of everything we have tested Event does better than just about anything on the market both in the lab and in the field. (Note:I do not work for Event) Hopefully this helps a little.

Scothguard is a nice thought but the Endurance is still much better because it has a tighter weave. Scothguard will help the fabric from wetting out (which it is already really good at) but if there is enough pressure (>450mm of H20) or so, the water will still penetrate the fabric no matter how good the DWR. Rolling over in you bag on some condensation or melted snow on the floor provides more than enough pressure to do that. Without spending too much time to explain this, ther is a difference betting water repellency (beading up) and water resistance (ability to prevent water from passing through the fabric. Hopefully designers in the outdoor industry will figure it out someday, but I don't have much faith in them.

Dustin, I work in the textile industry and can tell you that Pertex Edurance is around 4x more water resistant (around 450mm of H20 compared to 2200mm H20). Pertex Quantum is also sognificantly less abrasion resistant. It is however more breathable and about half the weight. As with everything, it is a trade off, pick your poison.

The information below starts a bit slow but gets more interesting as you go on. Any thoughts???? Technical Clothing Definitions and Concepts I Definitions as commonly used in the outdoor industry A Water resistance (waterproofness) - the ability of a fabric to prevent water from passing through [measured in millimeters (mm) of water]. B Water repellency- The ability of a fabric to repel water or cause it to “bead up” on its surface C Wicking-the ability of a fabric to absorb and spread out moisture (perspiration) thus increasing surface area and evaporation D Vapor permeability (breathability)- The ability of a fabric to pass perspiration in the form of water vapor (measured in grams/square meter/24hrs). E Air permeability (wind resistance)- the ability of a fabric to prevent air/wind from penetrating it. This is measured in ft3/ft2/minute but can be converted to mph for easy comparison. II Layers A Base layer- The layer of clothing worn next to the skin. It’s function is twofold. First, it should carry perspiration away from the skin to promote evaporation. In addition, this layer should provide a level of warmth appropriate for the activity level and weather conditions. Ideally, this is the only part of your layering system (traditional hardshell or softshell) that should absorb any water. 1 Lightweight- Summer/cooling- In warmer temperatures fabrics that are high wicking and fast drying are ideal. This is because evaporation is a cooling process and therefore a fast wicking/drying garment help keep the user cool. As a result, synthetic fibers are ideal for this because they do not absorb water into the fiber and therefore dry quicker. 2 Mid and Expedition weight-This base layer used in cooler temperatures provides some degree of insulation and a moderate amount of wicking. Because these garments are worn at cooler temperatures, the cooling provided by ultra-wicking fabrics is not necessary and can even chill the user (think about the last time you took your sweaty pack off on a chilly day). As a result, wool, which absorbs some water but retains its warmth when wet, unlike cotton, is ideal. The wool should however be very thin otherwise it will take too long to dry. In the last few years companies have learned to knit wool fibers into much thinner fabric making this possible. Additionally, this layer should have a snug fit to maximize thermal characteristics and help drive moisture out. B Insulation- Comes in a variety of forms (fleece, down and synthetic fill jackets) and is worn as a second layer in the traditional hardshell layering system as well as “over the top” in soft shell/nontraditional layering systems. C Soft shell- Garments generally made of tightly knit fabrics which are sometimes bonded to a woven face fabric. Softshell fabrics have good water resistance due to their tight knit construction and are water repellent because they are treated with DWR. Soft shell fabrics are significantly more breathable than hardshell fabrics when they are without a laminate because they allow air (wind) to pass through the fabric and transport water vapor away. This means that if you can’t blow through the fabric and feel you’re your breath on the other side it will likely breathe no better than a hardshell. Ideally, no part of a soft shell garment should absorb water! Water repellency is very important to the function of these fabrics. If either the faceside or backside of your jacket “wets out” an impermeable water layer is formed which prevents perspiration in the form of water vapor from passing through it. This means a wetted out jacket or pant is no longer breathable. D Hard Shell (waterproof-breathable)- A waterproof garment that allows the passage of some moisture. While these garments do breathe better than rubber and coated nylon they are still do so relatively poorly (a plastic bag is approximately 40% as breathable as Gore Tex XCR in certain test methods). Because of this, these garments are not ideal for activities that require a high level of exertion. It is for this reason that softshells were originally developed. Like softshells water repellency is also very important to their performance. If the outer face fabric has wetted out the garment will no longer breathe no matter how good the laminate/waterproof-breathable layer. III Layering systems The traditional hardshell/waterproof breathable layering system starts with a wicking layer on the bottom, followed by a layer of insulation with a hardshell over the top of everything. This layering system is ideal for low energy activities or in very cold conditions where overheating (and therefore sweating and moisture dissipation) is not a concern. It should also be noted that in very cold conditions where sweat management is not an issue the hardshell is often unnecessary because there is little danger of getting wet. The traditional hardshell system does not perform as well in warm and/or wet conditions because while the hardshell does keep moisture (rain) out, it also keeps moisture (sweat) in. This is true for two reasons: First, the breathability of a hardshell (or softshell, although it is significantly better than a hardshell because it is air permeable) increases with the differential temperature across the fabric. This means that if the temperature inside your jacket is 100F and 40F on the outside (60F difference) it will breathe better than it would if it was 70F inside the jacket and 40F on the outside (30F difference). This is important because while we can not control the temperature outside our jacket we can control the temperature inside it by wearing it closer to our body. For example, a hardshell jacket worn over a big down jacket has a lower temperature inside it than if worn directly over the baselayer. The other condition that helps drive moisture through a hardshell (or softshell, although it is easier to do because it is air permeable) is a large difference in humidity. As a result, hardshells breathe best when the humidity is low. Unfortunately we rarely have a need for a hardshell when the humidity is low because rainy weather is humid weather. This means that hardshell really doesn’t start breathing well until it is already clammy inside your jacket. It is because of the concepts explained above that soft shells and “over the top” insulation such as belay jackets are gaining popularity. Unfortunately many outdoor companies have yet to understand the physics behind this process and are continuing to design for fashion instead of function. If you really want to manage moisture well in the outdoors, you need to understand the concepts above and adjust your layers accordingly.

Have you contacted REI about this? They donated to help save Peshastin in the 80's. I'm not sure who to contact but it's worth a try.

Jason, I don't believe either Steve or Lisa redpointed the route. but I may be mistaken. I know they are friends with Skinner and that he introduced them.

I work in R&D and test waterproof breathable fabrics. I can tell you that eVent is significanlty more breathable that any other "hardshell" fabric on the market. I can't give you values that would mean too much because there are several standardized industry tests for measuring breathability. Most companies (fabric mills) use the test that makes their product look the best. I can tell you that eVent comes up a winner in every test method I have seen, the only thing that varies is how much better it performs. I coulg go on, but it gets a little technical and boring for most people. Suffice it to say that eVent is the shit.

I know Steve Petro and Lisa Gnade have freed all the moves on TR. Apparently the route even has something to do with them getting married. I think Steve was impressed that Lisa had worked the route or something like that. They are reps for DMM if you want to contact them.

I have an REI Nooksack +35F bag. It is 2lbs 4oz, uses Promaloft and seems to be rated conservatively. I've used it in 15F temp with a belay jacket and was very warm. For the price it is hard to beat. $159.00

Also, Redoubt makes some good points. Believe it or not, the climbing community has performed a great deal more research on the strength/longevity of ropes that we ever see. It is however in their best interests (financial and legal) for us to retire ropes sooner rather that later. The fact is that ropes can last much longer that most of us use them but it at some point we all retire them because we are no longer sure they are still adequate. At that point, feel free to send them to Dru.

I agree with Dru. It is a myth. I can assure you that a 5 year old rope will not fail the UIAA test unless there are other circumstances. Unless the rope has been subjected to UV, numerous falls, or some other significant source of wear the rope retains most of its original strenth. It is however possible that the ropes didn't meet the number of UIAA falls the manufacturer claimed.

A couple friends climbed Outer Space over the weekend. They said there was soome snow on the approach and Two Tree ledge but that the decent was free of snow. Apparently they did the first couple pitches in approach shoes to keep their rock shoes dry. All in all, it souded pretty nice.

Good advice Winter. I'm not too worried about climbing anything specifically. FOr this trip I'll be happy to swim, drink, sun, and do a bit of climbing. I certainly don't have plans to tick some dream route, just chill with the wife. (Wow, I'm not used to saying that one yet).