Thinker

OK, I think this one deserves it’s own topic. quote: Originally posted by krazy 1: Ok I got one... I was over in the Icicle just the other weekend going to work on a solo route, there were two other climbers coming off the route I wanted to go up. So I waited set my anchor, got on the rope was about ready to climb... the guy said "So what do you think about this idea?... I have never done any soloing, but I thought that if I could use my pack as an anchor and used like a grigri to belay with and just let the grigri fall through the rope as I went up,... it would should work... right?" my response was..."even if the pack was heavy enough to slightly anchor you, do you have any idea what the hell would happen if you fell? - lets think about it, your pack weights X amount, you weight 200+ pounds (this guy was freaking tall)......... the volocity of that fall would be so great ............." we just looked at each other, i went on my way up the wall, the dumbass ..... i don't freaking care where he went. We walked away from our encounter with you shaking our heads, too. For the time being I’m going to essentially ignore the ‘dumbass’ comment and assume that you and I were having a poor communication day. As you confirmed in your post, I was upfront about having never soloed, nor do I plan on attempting it in the near future, but I have thought about it. I admire your gumption, to each their own…….. So, here’s the solo climbing system I tried to describe that day (I’d like to have the forum’s opinion on it): The set-up is based on a modified toprope scenario (as was yours that day). 1. Anchor the rope at the top of the climb by tying a fig8 on a bight near one end of the rope and clip into the anchor of your choice. 2. Throw the rope down the intended route, with the other end touching the ground. 3. Once back at the base of the climb, tie a butterfly (or other appropriate knot) a near the ground and attach your pack on it, a 5 or 10 lb pack should suffice, and would really depend on the tension req’d to pull rope thru the self-belay device. The pack would actually set on the ground and, for the sake of this discussion, lets assume there are 6 inches of slack in the rope. 4. Hook up your choice of self-belay device (including a gri-gri, as you’re so inclined) and climb away. 5. As you move up the rope, having the rope pseudo ‘anchored’ at the bottom would minimize the number of times you’d actually have to pull the rope thru your gri-gri, as the tension on the bottom would pull it thru as you climb. 6. In the event of a fall the only downward camming force on the gri-gri (the force trying to unlock the gri-gri) would be the weight of the rope (reference the 6 inches of slack in point #3.) Hopefully your gri-gri would catch you! (I say this tongue-in-cheek as the only time I’ve ever been dropped has been by a belayer using a gri-gri…..I REALLY dislike them….) For completeness, the system I say you using was this: 1. Climber tied into one end of the rope. 2. Rope ran from the climber to the top anchor and back down to the climber, where it then ran thru the gri-gri on the climber’s harness. Potential advantages to the system I describe, as compared to the one I saw you using are: 1. The climber has less rope management issues while climbing. 2. When the climber does have to stop and fuss or pull rope thru the self-belay device, he/she doesn’t have to pull 2x the distance just climbed, as you did while using your system. 3. It’s possible to climb longer routes, as the climber is not limited to routes ½ the total length of the rope. Potential disadvantages of soloing with a gri-gri using either system: 1. As one climbs high enough that there is significant amount of rope coming out the ‘hand’ side of the gri-gri, the weight of the rope may tend to cam the gri-gri in such a way as it decreases it’s tendency to grab the rope in the event of a fall. So, Krazy1, does that make any more sense to you? Forum, shoot some holes in all this and tell us how YOU solo. And, for the record, this is all in the spirit of promoting safe climbing and a healthy exchange of ideas. If it turns out I really am a ‘dumbass’ about roped solo climbing, at least I’m a dumbass climbing within the bounds of what I know best, that of many years of roped climbing with good partners (with the exception of the beginner who dropped me using the damned gri-gri in the gym.)

Easy boy, there's more than one way to read her slogan. The most likely way a climber would be face down in a scree gully is during a descent, likely after a hard day's climbing, visiting Muir in spirit, and throwing rocks at the snafflehounds. That momentary loss of balance could be painfull and could require the assistance of real medical professionals, not just Mr. Daniels and alpine floss...... [ 08-07-2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

At City of Rocks, ID a couple of months ago my gf and I were finished climbing for the day, heading back to camp. I spotted a guy really running out a climb nearby and suggested we watch him for a bit. The kid was on an unbolted face, about 5.8, about 50 feet above the deck, trailing a rope, with no pro in (there was really no place to put pro on that face). The other end of the rope was being held, yes 'held', by a young lady who was not wearing a harness. hmmm, I thought. About that time the climber shouted down, "Do you see any bolts around here?" Thinking he was being a smart ass free-soloer (there were a few of them posing for pics on Bath Rock the day before) I shouted up, "Yeah, about 100 feet to your left." He asked, "Do you think I can make it over there?" Still thinking he was goofing I said, "Sure, you can do anything! right?" Something didn't feel right, so I asked the girl at the bottom of the climb if he was really joking around. She said, "No, he's really scared." Oh Fuck! "Hold on dude, I'm coming." dumped our packs, racked up a few cams, and started up the 5.6 crack about 15 ft to his left, talking to him all the way. At the anchors I tossed him down a figure 8 on a bite with a locker he could clip into. When he got up to the anchor slings he asked, "Is this what you call a rescue?" Reply, "It's not a really rescue unless they bring in a helicopter." "I'll bet you think I'm really stupid...." "Well, at least you're alive..." We set his rope as a toprope and rapped down. At the bottom we noted that their group of 4 had a total of 2 harnesses, 4 biners, 2 slings, and one grigri. My gf showed him a quick draw and asked if he had any of them. He said, "No, I should really get some of those." Needless to say, we beat a hasty retreat and didn't look back. Tragically, an experienced Seattle climber named Kim fell and died that same day at The City. [ 08-07-2002, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

The entrance we used is on the east side of the east crater. I used crampons and axe to move down about 6 or 8 feet of ice, then ditched them. We didn't end up using special gear, but we may have been lucky. There's always the risk of losing your way and trying to exit thru an exit that's just too small to wiggle thru. Disclaimer: Your experience could vary significantly from mine....be prepared for anything. A HUGE consideration is the unique environment there. Please acquaint yourself with caving ethics, esp re waste disposal. Take a pee bottle (DON'T pee in the cave) and blue bags. [ 08-07-2002, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

Sleeveless--yeah, thanks for showing off the fancy guy line hitch system you honed on Denali. I was a little concerned that we'd be up all night with our backs to the tent walls to hold them up, but all went well. Guess the winds weren't as strong as those Lambone was battling (the ones that snapped the cord on his I-Tent.) Maps--my partner got the map from a study published in 1975 from the UW library. The entrances do change over time, but the main passage evidently doesn't change much. [ 08-07-2002, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

we'll get photos next time! We're already scheming ways to get away from work for another trip up.

Pictures: no, we left the photo gear on the surface because we weren't sure were going to make it thru the first skinny passages. the original intent was to spend 2 days there and when that changed we decided to tap as much of it as we could in the morning before we headed out. by the time we realized we were actually going to make it into the main passage neither of us thought to go back up for the camera and light guns. definitely one of our misgivings about the trip. Early climbers: my understanding is that Van Trump, Longmire, Fuller, etc. spent their nights in snow caves much nearer the surface, probably in the vicinity of Register Rock. some reports indicate the snow level in the crater was high enough then to have made caves there. those small caves would have been absolutely miserable without the volume to stabilize temps....freezing on one side, roasting on the other. Gear: we took ice screws and ascenders, just in case. my partner has been a grotto member in London and Salt Lake City, and has extensive vertical caving experience. we just wanted to be prepared. the only use for the ice screws we had this trip was to anchor the tent. The ascenders may have come in handy if we'd have descended in to the 'bird room' or if someone was not comfy on 45 degree scree slopes. [ 08-06-2002, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

My partner and I hauled our overnight gear, some caving gear, and some special photo gear to the summit Aug 3rd. We spent the night in the Eldo in the crater about 50 ft below Columbia Crest, howling winds and damn cold temps drove us into our bags as soon at the tent was set up. Morning was better, got the stove fired up in the vestibule. Spent part of the day Sunday exploring the ice caves below the snowfield in the east crater. In all, we descended about 150 feet below the caldera rim to a passage over 50 ft wide and 50 ft high. Our intent was to spend 2 days caving, but my partner was suffering from the altitude and the weather looked iffy, so we started down Sun afternoon. Definitely one of the more unique climbs I've done lately. It would also be a great place to bivy if the sh*t hit the fan up there. [ 08-06-2002, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

good thread on rec.climbing on that awhile back. I recall the recommendation was "No, don't do it". Everyone does it though. I stick to stickers, personally, with the hope that the adhesive is less likely to react with the polymer the helmet is made from than paint is.

I had one of the worst mosquito experiences of my life one night in Costa Blanca. Beautiful hotel room overlooking a lush valley, still night, grab a beer and head onto the veranda......holy sh*t, these skeeters are bad! Retreat to the room but of course there are no window screens. Close the blinds.....roasting. Crack the blinds for a little bit of air....in come the raging hordes. Sleep? No way, they were sticking me thru the sheet. I swear I was up for several hours killing skeeters with a bath towel...blood splattered all over the ceiling and walls. And of course it's impossible to sleep after that cause you imagine there's another one on you. Needless to say, the next day was better spent snorkeling than climbing.

I was on a plane last year and shortly after take-off from Seattle I was admiring the spectacular view of Mt. Rainier and the surrounding old growth forests. As it was, I was in the middle seat and had to look over an elderly lady (50s, I suppose) who had the window seat. After looking at the scenery for a few minutes I looked at the lady, hoping to hear her opinion, maybe even asking for it with my expression. What she said is this, "Look at all that WASTED land out there." I was floored...couldn't muster up the desire to say anything to her for the rest of the flight. I guess it takes all kinds.

blah, blah, blah.......

I SAW them, I SAW them............ unbelievable mounds of rock hard playground slathered with slippery slidey fun stuff, topped off with a wee bit of fleece! They needed to capture a bit more of the rope in the photos, though, IHMO.

yeah, I do get a bit rigid sometimes.........

so what do you and the frog SAY about my love life? [ 07-24-2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

I'll have to admit that I'm actually partial to sheep entrails, though.

but Madame, DO you have a crystal ball?

I like the one about the Free $5 Love Reading! what will Yahoo stoop to next?

We were on Dream On on Sat and my partner took one of those epic 30 foot slides. His approach has always been to slide down on his toes, burning rubber all the way. This time he tweaked a muscle/tendon in his calf and ended our day. Said it felt like a riding crop nailed him there when it happened. It was so bad he couldn't straighten out his leg or put much weight on it, even after a couple of beers at the Shady Tree. So I guess wearing out shoes isn't the only concern with that approach. I'm not sure there IS a good way to fall on a slab. I also think one should have several techniques for minimizing damage in the hip pocket. Different scenarios call for different reactions. For instance, starting the 'crux' 'crack' section on the 4th Pitch of Total Soul (Darrington) leaves you vulnerable to hitting a lower angle slab below if you peel there (kind of along the lines of hitting a ledge). It's still slabby, but I'd not care to push off there and try for a free fall, nor would I care to skid down the rock there. Thankfully that section isn't too sketchy and takes lots of little cams. My best rec is don't fall, don't lead run out slabs at or above your ability, and get your partner to lead all the scary sections. Now that my partner's out for awhile, maybe I should beg some of the gals from craghag.com to ropegun the slabs for me when they need a break from their tradleading adventures.

Watch out for the crazies on the peninsula now, too. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/78580_pighunt15ww.shtml

I frankly don't understand 'bike lanes'. They ARE clearly marked thru the middle of some blocks, but when it comes to an intersection, they mysteriously disappear, leaving a dangerous ambiguous zone. What's really supposed to happen there if a car needs to turn and unseen bicyclists are cruising along on the right? I consulted my WA drivers manual for a quick education on bike lanes....it's strangely silent. My other favorite is bicyclists who come SCREAMING through a cross walk while I'm trying to turn. If I'm in a particularly testy mood, I aim for them as the letter of the law says they should dismount and walk to have the right of way in a cross walk.

I looked, too. I even PM'd him for clarification...no reply. There is a granite boulder (3' diameter) in the area. Maybe Hex is a shrimp and it's just a matter of perspective. At least it was a cool place for a walk, even if my gf did keep telling me it was obviously a hoax. And it gave us an excuse to stop by and see Jimi while we were in the hood! [ 07-17-2002, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

Found this last night after several combinations of search terms. http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/services/safety/harness.pdf The translation from Italian is not particularly good, but the conclusions are unmistakeable... "The Central School has decided that during all mountaineering courses and free climbing it is recommended that the combination harness be used. The use of the sit harness is recommended only when climbing without a backpack. In regards to movement on a glacier, the attachment of the rope to the harness has to be in a fashion as to only effect a pull on the sit harness." It appears that if a chest harness is rigged properly, it can provide additional safety, esp when wearing a pack. But, if rigged improperly, can cause more damage to the climber than not having one. I look forward to seeing what AMGA comes up with. [ 06-13-2002, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

Haireball- great ideas, I can tell you think about this, too. Let me reiterate your clove hitch solution to make sure I understand. "One solution to the problem of the 'folding spine' is to clove hitch the rope to the chest harness biner rather than letting it 'run thru'". Correct interpretation? Re crossloading: anytime I've tugged on the chest harness biner, both bights of webbing have moved easily to the end of the biner, avoiding crossloading potential. Does this indicate a chest harness that's too large (a potential tooth knocker?) Another troublesome fall scenario I see is a leader sliding on an icy slope head first, unable to self arrest. (Of course, any climber worth his grit would have running protection placed in that situation.) As the rope comes tight, the chest harness biner is pulled down to the tie in point on the seat harness, potentially crumpling the spine untill the body is turned around. Having a properly spaced clove hitch on the chest harness biner seems like it may reduce (but not eliminate) the risk to the spine. I'll toy with the 'pack as a chest harness' idea a bit, it sounds more reasonable. Thanks for your insight.

Great ideas and observations. I've always been a bit concerned about choking or being suffocated by the chest harness if knocked unconscious during a fall that leaves me hanging on the rope. I hadn't considered knocking out my teeth! While I don't plan to fall into a crevasse, sh*t happens when you're on the road less travelled.