RuMR

no...my point was hyperbolic...ie, if we take everyone's argument that we are trying to reduce impacts, then its probably best to just not go climbing...understand??

maybe we agree this is a stupid argument instead... my real point, whether you give two or three shits, i don't care, is that rockclimbing is an impact in and of itself... everybody points to the gunks and i just about fucking laugh...yeah, no fixed protection, so what you get is a big fuckin' rat's nest of rp's, shit and webbing all "fixed" into the rock...there you go, much less of an impact than a single orange tan painted camo-bolt... let's face it, we are humans, and impacting is our business and we should try to minimize it as much as possible, but to think you are "nature" boy and shit and aren't doing anything is nothing short of ludicrous... oh, and joseph's a double standard pussy who's bowing down to his particular climbing "gods" cuz he can't conceive of himself climbing with his style at their level...so, he can't make the argument about impacts either...his is nothing short of a chestbeating session in all honesty. THe laugher is that if we extrapolate his argument into assuming that everyone is climbing at a certain grade is free to do what they want, and then the standard raises to that "specified" level we will have exactly what is going on today...

really, i don't remember this on jap...seems to me that there is protection anywhere and everywhere you choose to place it...it is a crack afterall... apples and oranges...

It's not a scruffy gulley. It's a wide handcrack filled with dirt and grass. Why don't you go up there this weekend and look at it. There is plenty of other fun stuff to climb while you are looking around. On a personal note - You really sound like a dick in this message. Two people are willing to take up your somewhat ridiculous challenge defending at least one climb you know nothing about. Try to be a little more cordial when the cooperation you didn't expect materializes. With your attitude, I can't say I'm terribly excited about all of this. FYI - It will take a while to clear out that crack. I would expect more than an hour or two. That tree will need a saw... Low on the route: The grass is the crack Higher on the route: so let me get this straight...you are gonna remove bolts to reduce impact by cleaning a vegetated crack and cutting a tree? Fuck, that's an impact right there, and i'll bet the tree considers itself getting sawn quite a bit more of an "impact" than the rock right next to it getting a hole...dontcha think? This is about the stupidest thing i've heard all week...you guys are morons...the real answer is to probably remove the route altogether...

Really? I've seen tons of places protected purely by local ethics that are applied consistently. The Gunks (albeit managed by Mohonk Preserve, but thats not the reason there are no bolts), Adirondacks crags, many trad areas back East like Seneca. And I've seen very responsible bolting at mixed areas like the New. This was because local climber's bought into the current standards of the area. Even here in Washington, Static Point comes to mind instantly as an example of a place that has managed to keep it "very traditional" despite the goings on at other nearby areas. seneca has rap bolted sport routes...

No, actually I did note that. But I've been climbing for long enough to make that type of judgment call. Sort of like not needing to wade through twenty-two thousand lines of assembler to make some basic 'value' statements about programming in it. cuz you're special and all...love yer double standards, babe!

I was never taught that. I was taught to THINK first. That's why I'm still alive. How old are you? 18 1/2? I never told anyone I was "smart". You must have arrived at that conclusion yourself. But I do know that YOU ARE WOEFULLY PHILOSOPHICALLY IMPAIRED. You also have a very short memory. a) YOUR respect means zilch to me; b) reread some of the previous pages and refresh yourself on the commentary above before you pop off; c) the only time I'd climb I.B. would be for the purpose of erasure, and if I had the time necessary to do the job properly, I certainly have the inclination. Unlike you, I don't have time on my hands to post over 5,000 mostly inane, posts on a climbing bulletin board. Away with you now! oh... i don't know, your clown posts are the definition of "inane"

joseph is only consistent in his inconsistency!

wow...big words!!

for the record, the bolts should be removed due to the illegality of placing them with a motorized drill, whether they knew or not where the border was...my opinion

JOSEPH = Bush administration logic...or 1984 double speak...

Hawk, trust me - I wish it were that simple. And, yes, the Nose was freed by using rap-placed bolts and El Cap is a wilderness area. Would I personally have done it on either the Nose or Prusik - no. But again, I'm not so quick to judge at that bleeding edge or assume there are never exceptions worth making. My concerns revolve more around efforts to make those exceptions the norm. The easiest way would be to simply avoid all such exceptional situations, but we both know that isn't particularly realistic as Harding, Jardine, and Hill have all shown. you and your "bleeding edge" are a complete double standard...and yes,it is ambiguous...you are about as clear as mud...

Matt and Hawk, there is no doubt whatsoever that Jardine's chopped traverse made the free climb of the Nose [in totality] a possibility even though he was and is widely panned for having done it. That said, it's still an irreversible "damage done" deal. Neither of the folks party to the FFA would have chipped the traverse to have accomplished the FFA and I don't believe any subsequent [free] party or parties would ever either. It was a clear mistake borne of an obsession, but one that can not, as opposed to should not, be undone. The Nose also would not have been free climbed without a couple of rap-placed bolts and rap-removed pins. These decisions were entirely discretionary on the part of the later teams attempting to free climb the route. Would I have done it - no, I would have aided those stretches and I wouldn't use the chipped traverse either. But as a result, had I ever so aspired, no one would ever regard such a climb a 'free' ascent. Not a problem for me, but for folks gunning for the FFA, their call to resort to exactly the same 'methods of last resort' as the FA team were theirs to make or the Nose would likely never have been freed (and ditto for recent free/aid controversies on WFLT). And no, I haven't climbed the Nose, but there is no difference whatsoever between the last pitch of the Nose and the last pitch of the line on Prusik, in deed or method. So again - for me - whatever I think of those two pitches and routes, I am ethically bound to think exactly the same of both; they're either both legitimate in the context of those FFA attempts at the edge of the possible, or they're both bogus and not worthy of an FFA designation. I'm not prepared to call Brooke and Lynn's FFA effort on the Nose bogus and that unalterably leads me to the exact same assessment of the Prusik line. There is no appreciable difference between them at all. And if I hear you correctly Hawk, along with the Prusik line, you clearly do not recognize any 'free' ascent of the Nose. And hey, there are people in the Valley who look at it sideways too, so you're not entirely alone. I'm just not prepared to go there and make that judgment and that's in part because I would have come down on the other side of those calls - but only for myself, at that same time and place. Also, outside of Creek splitters and the odd short pitch here or there, the world of straightup, multipitch .13 and .14 trad climbing is rarely pure or without pre-cleaning and pre-inspection. Not many free, groundup, onsight trad 14's go down to say nothing of free, groundup, onsight trad 14 FAs. I'm not so quick to rush to judgment at the bleeding edge where trad - for short stretches - necessarily gives way in one form or another to what I call "sprad". Containing "sprad effects" at the bleeding edge of trad climbing to me means giving absolutley the least quarter possible to any and all methods and techniques which dilute a pure, clean, trad ascent. But I also recognize there are limits to free climbing - the odds of seeing free, ground up onsight trad 5.16 FA's is pretty damn slim no matter how much you want to look backwards and say "but 5.11 was the top end just xxx years ago". As far as free climbing is concerned - somewhere out there right at the limits we are rapidly closing in on - trad, sprad, sport, pre-placing, pre-inspection, pre-cleaning, etc., etc. all start to bleed into "can a human climb it free in any style, period" - again, much like at an event horizon or when humans play chess against computers. And that is my personal view - that there is a boiling ethical event horizon operating at all times at the very bleeding edge of climbing in all disciplines and just because something may happen there, I no way support the idea that means there is any legitimate ethical grounds, or wholesale carte blanche, to back-propogate it down to every 5.6 in the land. That in no way means 'anything goes' or that anything is 'acceptable' on that bleeding edge in my view - but it's at that bleeding edge where evolution occurs - and exactly because of that, what does occur there should be looked at hard before being simply turned loose into the wild. Jardine's traverse is a good example of one that did not survive the cut on inspection. From what I can tell, the difference between me and a lot of you folks is, that for me there is an evaluative ethical boundary which lives instantly behind the bleeding edge and the rules that apply there (like an event horizon) don't necessarily immediately apply to the entire known universe outside of it. Whereas for a lot of you folks, anytime anything happens at the bleeding edge you do want instant, unexamined ethical carte blanche to apply the same technique the next day to your pet 5.10, and the next guy to the 5.8 he's developing out of the goodness of his heart in an unselfish act of 'community service'. Rap-bolting is exactly such a method to me - my preference by far would have been that rap-bolting have never escaped into the wild of climbs of a lower grade then the practice was initially developed for. I'm no fan of bolting, period - lead, rap, power, hand - I consider them at best an occasional necessary evil. The use of them to push the boundaries of difficulty in climbing I get and can grudgingly accept; the use of them to simply to provide access to suburban hordes I do not. For me it isn't a matter of elitism - it's a matter of believing some things that happen at the bleeding edge should at times stay at that grade and not instantly back-propogate all the way down to 5.6's. I admit it's an inherently different perspective, but one I've held for thirty-three years of climbing and I'm not going to change it now. And by those measures I still consider the line on Prusik a stellar trad and free climbing route. IB on the otherhand - entirely aside from the land management and legal issues - is, for me, a one-ride alpine theme park conceived and put up by people who simply do not know the difference. rapidly closing in on? People are onsighting 5.14b and c now on sport routes...and alan watts damn near onsighted citypark placing his gear almost two decades ago...

methinks that anyone who climbs "harder" than joseph is free to do what they wish...this standard is only upward in application; however... everyone else who climbs "easier" than joseph had better subscribe to his beliefs... its really quite simple...a thing of beauty, no?

ding dong...40 years ago, 5.11 would be where your 5.13+ is now...so, you can't make this argument... perhaps you are too frickin' old to realize that in some places 5.14 is pretty common?? the ratings are irrelevant to the ethics and vice a versa...at least professor don and poopStain are about as consistent as they come...you are a vascillating old lady in comparison... You should be Paris's lawyer, what with your different "standards" and all...

and what bolts to buy...our very own daryl cramer was advising on which way to go...

i have that effect on women, even though i'm a guy...

its good to see my little piggies doing so well!!

I didn't say they bolted next to cracks, I said I could find gear on lots of those pitches. I don't plan on doing more than using the same start as IB and take whatever line appears to be the best to the top. just sitting here wondering whether you will be wearing a tshirt that says "MY BEACH" and using your brass balls or your lead ones... Personally, i'd go with the lead ones...much more "heroic" and worthy of chestbeating...

Nothing could be farther from the truth, Off. I have nothing but admiration for boulderers and always have since early Gill days. Boulderers are taking risks and are totally self-reliant in their endeavors - and the don't dog routes on top of it. I also have no problem with mixed routes, they've always been part of climbing. The problem I have is exclusively with sport climbers. Sport climbing over twenty five years, in combination with gyms, has been a complete and absolute and unequivoval plague on the landscape. A vast majority of folks of 'climbers' today are wholly bolt-enabled and risk-averse and almost none of them would have been climbers back in the day. I make no bones or apologies about it - my clear and abiding preference would be that they weren't 'climbers' today. Again, this 'revolution' is entirely mechanized, and has led to crowding, access problems, and relentlessly threatens trad crags and routes everywhere. When plurality and 'individual freedom' are wholly predicated and based on the application of battery technology and stainless steel to pristine rock instead of personal responsibility I am no believer at all. And hey, I may well be the last guy on earth taking an unequivocal and unvarnished stance against sport climbing, but so be it. The true fascism (or maybe you prefer communism, which is quite a bit more accurate) happening is happening at the point of a drill. dude...get over it, you fuckin' elitist prick... Do you use a wheelbarrow to haul your lead balls around in??

wow dru... SCARY nut case...you can keep her in canada...

redpoint at smith has them...

wow...you must be like a level 62 staffbitch, huh?

Back on topic...i think it depends on the kid my 7 year old cranks...he's been climbing pretty solid since he was six or so and began climbing at 3 1/2...in between digging holes in the dirt and throwing rocks into the river, he gets pitches in... Some of his buddies, well, a couple of them will be naturals, others, definitely not so...but this is the same with adults...

for christmas ecock, i'm gonna get you one of those pill boxes that have a slot for S M T W Th F S to keep you cheery... no go take your pillz, bitch...