RuMR

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bob's fat...he'll stretch his 60 into a 65 in short order...

:lmao: ahhh Tim...what's that saying about "sinners in hell want ice water?" Jens, hope things are going well...contact me about the turbokid project...PaulT is in town, between you, him and Ben, i wanna see this happen...

...maybe he ain't gettin' any bellevue barbie action!

tim's "evolving"...why just yesteryear, he was gonna chop a spanish bolted crack! hysterical that you are complaining about the rain to a bunch of PNW climber wanna-bes!

i'm just sick of snivelling, 19-year-old twats who think suburbia sucks because it doesn't appeal to their superficial, lame, narcissistic, single, partying lifestyle. KockAssSuckingDick...you are a tool...bellevue f-ing blows...it takes me goddamn an hour to drive 12 miles to work...

Hard to imagine from this interpretation that you read what I wrote at all. I was very explicit my comments and viewpoint have nothing whatsoever to do with anyone climbing at a particular level or that any one climbing at a particular level has carte blanche to do anything and everything. My point and belief is I feel no method, technique or means should escape unexamined from the bleeding edge where evolution is happening AND that it should be two seperate decisions whether a means is acceptable at the bleeding edge and also is viable to be propogated all the way down to every 5.6 in the land. That, as opposed to normal situation where the minute Frank Hardbody does it everybody with is doing it on every grade. In that scenario it is in no way a double standard - it's appropriate and measured means. Your approach is one where anything goes everywhere on everything the minute it is revealed - it's more communist than anything else with no merit test of any kind. That's exactly why we have circumstances which are the subject of this thread. Oh, and I bow down to no one - I just am not quick to judge at the bleeding edge nor do I leap to criticize difficult calls occuring at that edge simply because I wouldn't have made the same one. I give no one a pass regardless of who they are. i don't understand how you can say that party A establishing Line 1 is allowed to rap bolt, yet party B establishing Line 2 can not. it doesn't make any sense...bleeding edge... Caldwell just about onsight flashed ElCorazon the other day...falling once...this is my point...that particular free route was cutting edge when it was established, yet now at that "evolving" "bleeding" edge, someone almost onsights it ground up...

no...my point was hyperbolic...ie, if we take everyone's argument that we are trying to reduce impacts, then its probably best to just not go climbing...understand?? That's your justification for bolting cracks? where did i say bolt cracks???

:lmao: alex missed it on seneca too...

Tim...you are so pig-in-shit...seriously...you're livin' the life that i dream about...

this thread is ultrabrutal...

this is the exact reason why the anchor at jap was removed...

just out of curiosity, why do you care one way or the other?? as long as they don't change the location of your bolts? Rudy

no...my point was hyperbolic...ie, if we take everyone's argument that we are trying to reduce impacts, then its probably best to just not go climbing...understand??

maybe we agree this is a stupid argument instead... my real point, whether you give two or three shits, i don't care, is that rockclimbing is an impact in and of itself... everybody points to the gunks and i just about fucking laugh...yeah, no fixed protection, so what you get is a big fuckin' rat's nest of rp's, shit and webbing all "fixed" into the rock...there you go, much less of an impact than a single orange tan painted camo-bolt... let's face it, we are humans, and impacting is our business and we should try to minimize it as much as possible, but to think you are "nature" boy and shit and aren't doing anything is nothing short of ludicrous... oh, and joseph's a double standard pussy who's bowing down to his particular climbing "gods" cuz he can't conceive of himself climbing with his style at their level...so, he can't make the argument about impacts either...his is nothing short of a chestbeating session in all honesty. THe laugher is that if we extrapolate his argument into assuming that everyone is climbing at a certain grade is free to do what they want, and then the standard raises to that "specified" level we will have exactly what is going on today...

really, i don't remember this on jap...seems to me that there is protection anywhere and everywhere you choose to place it...it is a crack afterall... apples and oranges...

It's not a scruffy gulley. It's a wide handcrack filled with dirt and grass. Why don't you go up there this weekend and look at it. There is plenty of other fun stuff to climb while you are looking around. On a personal note - You really sound like a dick in this message. Two people are willing to take up your somewhat ridiculous challenge defending at least one climb you know nothing about. Try to be a little more cordial when the cooperation you didn't expect materializes. With your attitude, I can't say I'm terribly excited about all of this. FYI - It will take a while to clear out that crack. I would expect more than an hour or two. That tree will need a saw... Low on the route: The grass is the crack Higher on the route: so let me get this straight...you are gonna remove bolts to reduce impact by cleaning a vegetated crack and cutting a tree? Fuck, that's an impact right there, and i'll bet the tree considers itself getting sawn quite a bit more of an "impact" than the rock right next to it getting a hole...dontcha think? This is about the stupidest thing i've heard all week...you guys are morons...the real answer is to probably remove the route altogether...

Really? I've seen tons of places protected purely by local ethics that are applied consistently. The Gunks (albeit managed by Mohonk Preserve, but thats not the reason there are no bolts), Adirondacks crags, many trad areas back East like Seneca. And I've seen very responsible bolting at mixed areas like the New. This was because local climber's bought into the current standards of the area. Even here in Washington, Static Point comes to mind instantly as an example of a place that has managed to keep it "very traditional" despite the goings on at other nearby areas. seneca has rap bolted sport routes...

No, actually I did note that. But I've been climbing for long enough to make that type of judgment call. Sort of like not needing to wade through twenty-two thousand lines of assembler to make some basic 'value' statements about programming in it. cuz you're special and all...love yer double standards, babe!

I was never taught that. I was taught to THINK first. That's why I'm still alive. How old are you? 18 1/2? I never told anyone I was "smart". You must have arrived at that conclusion yourself. But I do know that YOU ARE WOEFULLY PHILOSOPHICALLY IMPAIRED. You also have a very short memory. a) YOUR respect means zilch to me; b) reread some of the previous pages and refresh yourself on the commentary above before you pop off; c) the only time I'd climb I.B. would be for the purpose of erasure, and if I had the time necessary to do the job properly, I certainly have the inclination. Unlike you, I don't have time on my hands to post over 5,000 mostly inane, posts on a climbing bulletin board. Away with you now! oh... i don't know, your clown posts are the definition of "inane"

joseph is only consistent in his inconsistency!

wow...big words!!

for the record, the bolts should be removed due to the illegality of placing them with a motorized drill, whether they knew or not where the border was...my opinion

JOSEPH = Bush administration logic...or 1984 double speak...

Hawk, trust me - I wish it were that simple. And, yes, the Nose was freed by using rap-placed bolts and El Cap is a wilderness area. Would I personally have done it on either the Nose or Prusik - no. But again, I'm not so quick to judge at that bleeding edge or assume there are never exceptions worth making. My concerns revolve more around efforts to make those exceptions the norm. The easiest way would be to simply avoid all such exceptional situations, but we both know that isn't particularly realistic as Harding, Jardine, and Hill have all shown. you and your "bleeding edge" are a complete double standard...and yes,it is ambiguous...you are about as clear as mud...