Dwayner

Whatever your problem might be with Mr. Beck, this whole thing is taking on the appearance of a bunch of junior high school thugs ganging up on the kid that doesn't fit into their idea of what's cool. Really. Back off and grow up. I've met the guy. He does his own thing in his own style. Go outside and kick a post if you are in such need to feel better about yourself that you are compelled to slam someone so hard.

Nice effort. Here's a suggestion should you try it again. Leave a car at Longmire and get someone to drop you off at the Snow Lakes trailhead and then start the traverse from Unicorn. You're at least heading sort-of downhill. I've done it a couple of times that way but even still it kept me busy for a number of hours. Steven's Peak is kind of remote and practically an all-day trip in and of itself. - Dwayner

Mr. Jon say: "It's funny that Dwayner is so bent out of shape that he had to email or call you to post in his defense. I can imagine the conversation now...." a) I'm not "bent out of shape" b) must we be in collusion for pope to respond? He does as he chooses. It just pisses some people off that he tends to agree with me.

Erik sprays: "WHEN YA GONNA CLIMB 5.13????" Dwayner asks.....Am I required to report that to you as well????

HEY ERIK... SO, YOU GOT WEB-CAMS POSTED AT ALL CLIMBING AREAS AROUND THE STATE HOPING YOU'LL CATCH A VIEW OF ME? AM I REQUIRED TO REPORT MY ACTIVITIES TO CC.COM (OR YOU IN PARTICULAR) ON A REGULAR BASIS? P.S. "DWHINER" WAS CLIMBING BEFORE YOU WERE EVEN BORN.

Jon.....realistically....I have heard few if any insights on this topic that are new to me. If you think listening means agreeing or compromising, you are mistaken. I listen and have heard nothing yet of sufficient impact to moderate my convictions. By the way, there are numerous strategies for making one's point or achieving goals. I choose my own style despite your opinion of its effectiveness. Deaf ears? Maybe some, but I have enlightened others.

RUMR asks: "Have you ever had a post that only included information on a specific route (i haven't publicly) or a request for information (I have)?" Yes I have. Several times. (not in this new forum). Do a search... - Dwayner

that's not very Kosher of you PP, but it's your forum It ain't his forum.

Interesting little commentaries. Erik: my convictions are not outdated just because you and many others might not like them . There are actually quite a few that agree with me.....the controvesy still exists. Just because more bolts are placed everyday doesn't mean it's a correct thing to do. Erik and MattP: You have no idea how much I climb or don't climb; I don't climb with either of you. As a matter of fact, I am quite active although you won't usually find me at Exit 38 , Little Si or Vantage. Cracked: are you a member of the "tone police"? Do you have an opinion of your own on the subject other than that you don't like mine? Look around you, pal...look all over this site and view the sheer quantity of drivel....YOUR'S INCLUDED. Interesting that you feel that you can claim to speak for so many. You, like everyone else, can see the name "Dwayner" or "Trask" or "MattP" or "Beck" or whoever else you might despise this week and scroll right on by! Peter Puget.....you wanted a Rock Climbing Forum and now you got one. If you think unpopular opinions or comments on the subject belong in Spray, then get the site-owners to make you a Mighty Moderator and you cut out all the comments you don't like. Yee ha! - Dwayner

Dude....something as important as the bolt-debate IS NOT SPRAY. As sport-"climbing" is utterly bolt dependent, and sport-"climbing" is considered a form of rock-climbing, then it belongs right here. Develop a consensus that sport-"climbing" is not rock climbing (or even climbing) and I MIGHT take the topic elsewhere. Even still, there are other issues such as bolts placed next to aid cracks in order to facilitate free climbing or to "protect the crack" ala Index. And there's more... Proper application of rock anchors and ethics = SPRAY???? Throw it into a forum full of talk about personal bowel habits, favorite sandwiches, ridicule of disliked "avatars" , and Richard Simmons photo manipulations???? You must be jesting. Yes, I have convictions...and I will continue to share them when I feel it is appropriate until everyone understands that there is a serious issue, whether they agree with it or not. For example, I contend that most new sporto's have NO CLUE that their easily acquired new hobby is consided by some to be controversial or ethically dubious. - Dwayner

"wirlwind" so articulately writes: "i believe this forum is called rock climbin not plastic pinchin, stupid pudwacker," If you're comments refer to my poem, than you have contributed little and your name-calling betrays the nature of your character. My poem has everything to do with contemporary climbing unless you think sport-climbing (perpetuated by gym-nurseries) is not rock climbing. I could almost agree with that.

That poem was ALL ABOUT rock-climbing, pal. You wanted a "Rock-Climbing" forum so now you're getting my perspective here....a perspective about contemporary rock climbing's SORRY STATE!

Yowsa! Show me that gym registration form and the three-month commitment and have that knucklehead test my half-baked gri-gri skills and set me right! BRING IT ON!!!! teach me to SHOUT OUT words like "TAKE!" 'n "SEND!" so I can mix in with the swarm of teen-aged, chalk-smeared, time-wastin', trend-mongers hopelessly devoted 2 a new endeavor until boredom sets in........ and they return to skateboarding or whatever. The rest of us.... we can only dream of what awaits us.... the next steps UP the Lofty L A D D E R the ultimate high.... as ARTiculately expressed 2 us by the route-setter with green-hair and a porcupine's tibia through his nose... in "dude"-punctuated prose as we sat spellbound at his Sportiva-clad edging digits... "work hard, nothing worthwhile comes easy... and someday, when you're ready.... and you'll know it when you're ready... (or I'll tell you) you will achieve the ULTIMATE DREAM: Exit 38."

Beck....don't listen to these guys. Nice to see you got connections. How 'bout this.....next time you get a chance to talk to these big shots, tell them about the sport-bolts at Vantage, etc. Tell them that grid-bolting is crude, selfish and not nice and people can go climbing without having to that. high-five, amigo! - Dwayner

Not to diminish anyone's accomplishments, because the Traverse Route is a tricky one any time of year, but it seems to me that when it was done in winter 1977, that was one of those years when it was really cold and there wasn't a heck of a lot of snow. I seem to recall thinking, when I heard that it had been done, that it would have been a lot harder if it had been full-on winter conditions. It's possible that both parties could have done it that year. - Dwayner

Pube Club Dave say: "I saw: Chico Hamilton, Blind Boys of Alabama, Hassan Hakmoun...." David......nobody has ever heard of these people. I'm glad you found them entertaining. Nice to see that this is Monday and you still have yet to do your weekly shout-out, e.g.:"hot-dang! It's Monday, people! Ya knows what thats means! Yee-haw! Pube-Club Tuesday comin' up! Hubba-da-hubba-da-hubba-da!!!! Where's we drinkin', muchachos y chicas?????"

"Sphinx" says a few things, including: "Dwayner always knows better." Thanks for your undying loyalty. I know you may find this hard to believe, but Dwayner doesn't always know better, but this is a subject that he has given a lot of study and thought to. Unfortunately, there are clues that some of those here with nasty opinions have not gone through an equivalent process. A lot of talk, but no substance. Sphinx: "I still can't understand how otherwise intelligent people can be so stupid." Nice to see that you got it all figured out. I guess we can all pack up and go home. We now have accumulated at least 3000 years of "stupid" Jews and 2000 years of "stupid" Christians, many of them who are Nobel Prize winners, humanitarians, professors, doctors inventors, high school drop-outs, and fast-food workers etc. Sphinx: "Oh, Dwayner, about your philosophers: in what sense would they argue that Jay doesn't exist? You mean that he's an avatar? Or would they delve into what constitutes existence?" Existentialist arguments. Jay B would also receive a "B-" grade at best for his kind of superficial commentary. Sphinx: "I suggest we quit posting on this thread. It's totally useless." I agree somewhat....this discussion really doesn't belong on a climbing web-site.....on the other hand, it's hard for me to sit back and not respond to the demeaning "baby Jesus" business....especially when it originates from at least two, so-called site "moderators". For some, such jackass comments are equivalent to the "N-word", striking at their heart and soul. To the extent that maybe some people might have been made aware that such comments can be construed as DEEPLY offensive, then the present "discussion" has been worthwhile. If you think that you can reasonably discuss the arguments pro and con for the existence of God, and so forth....it's a waste of time....especially with this audience and this site. I don't come here for religious discussions either. - Dwayner

Jay B concludes: "When the fundamental claims being made within a text, or on the basis of the material within the text cannot be proven, are utterly inconsistent with the laws which govern the operation of the physical world, or both – it is not necessary to thoroughly acquaint oneself with the book to refute the arguments or claims made within it." You obviously aren't very familiar with the text or the myriad ways of looking at it and the layers of meaning within. A lot of spirituality is based on faith, rather than physical evidence. One is ideational, the other phenomenological. I can't convince you that God exists, but I also know some philosophers that can make a convincing case that you don't exist. There are also quantum physicists who can tell you that we aren't even close to understanding how the universe works. So, believe what you want, Sparky....what a country!

I prefer to call it a "schvantz".

lI1|1! Get the chip off your shoulder. You seem to be the type that thinks everybody's opinion is equally valid. Guess what...they're not. Try that attitude should you have a heart attack....go see what your auto-mechanic can diagnose for you. Is the newly-minted, fresh-from-the-gym sport-climber's opinion about high-altitude physiology as valid as that of, say, Dr. Thomas Hornbein? No. Eric can say whatever he pleases. It would be nice if he were better informed on certain issues so his comments might have more credibility. A couple of other things: a) true, it doesn't matter where Jesus was born, but saying he was born in Egypt demonstrates a real lack of basic knowledge of the sensitive subject he is demeaning. b) Rabbi's are not sacred. Many are the first to laugh at themselves.

Dude..I'm not sure what you're asking here so I'll explain a couple of things. Your little Latin quotation (Qui me amat et canen mean amat" has nothin' to do with "letting the dogs out". It means, essentially..."One who loves me (must also) love my dog." And I'm sure you understand that it has nothing to do with the doggie-love porn nonsense that this may indeed be a troll for. If you're asking about "semper ubi sub ubi"...it is merely an amusing Latin/English word play. I had an expedition buddy once whose luggage didn't appear and he didn't have any clothes other than those he was wearing. I said he could borrow a pair of pants if he wore underwear. He said sure, and the next morning, he jumps out of his bed bare naked right into the pair of borrowed pants. I told him that they were now his to keep. We have since overcomed this temporary betrayal and lack of trust, but who wants some guy's sweaty bits on your clothing? Not I. Underwear is a good thing. For me, I either have to wear underwear or tuck that dang deal into my sock.

Hey smart-guy requiring certification... Lucky for you! No exam is required. I only ask that if you insist on spouting off offensive comments about other people's beliefs, that you at least get the facts straight (e.g. Jesus was NOT born in Egypt) and at least have a basic knowledge of history and philosophy that can allow you to actually contribute to the discussion without talking out of your rear. Now is that so unreasonable?

I took a little look at that web-site: Here's my immediate response:

Mr. Eric say: "why should i car about your belief systems? with no evidence that god, jesus, allah, bhudda or any other deity exists or is a factor in my life it seems quite pointless. and for you to think that i am a lessor person for not beliving in your "religon" is against jesus's principles. cause i dont think any of you are god and so passing judgement on my belief or lack there of, is a sin." Hey Erick....I REALLY don't care what you personally believe...and I don't require that you agree with or adhere to whatever my personal beliefs might be. I am, however, pointing out two things: a) you don't know what you're talking about in terms of "baby Jesus", history, theology, etc. b) while you seem to demand toleration for your "I don't believe or care" attitude, you seem quite intolerant and disrespectful of other's beliefs. Interesting,though, that you invoke what you perceive are "Jesus' principles" and seem to have a definition of sin...thus a kind of Eric-proto-theology. Refer again to a) and b) above.

Off....I thought you were more mature than that. - Dwayner