Peter_Puget

Cavey - That would be strictly speaking impossible. Funny Mitch you always seem less than average to me.

Freeclimb's advice:"Get shoes that fit your feet" I couldn't agree more. What size are your feet? What kind of climbing will you be doing most? PP

[ 06-20-2002, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

[ 06-20-2002, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

quote: ...just how tall are you guys? My pop sensibility says smaller than average. So come on fess up how tall are you? If I had met you I wouldn't be asking. Average US male 5' 10" I bet your shorter! My pop sensibility tells me you are wearin' danskins and sportin' a woody (at least when Dwayner's around.) Go hug yourself. True I can sport a woody for hours. quote: These guys believe that by creating controversy they can have their moment in the sun. Assuming that is the case, it seems you have a problem with that. What does your pop sensibility say about that? Simply that there are more effective ways to solve the problem. But I am glad you are agreeing with me. And you understood!

Off, what your missing is that these guys are not the valiant noble guard protecting our resources but a collection of jerks. For example, at least a year ago many suggested that when bolts are placed next to crack they simply be removed and the bolter notified of the action and possibly a report of the action posted here without the grand hysterics. Kinda similar to your recent suggestion. Somehow these guys don’t want to be responsible and do that. They would rather rant and rave. No one in this thread has argued for the bolts or even against their removal and yet these small minded guys start acting like idiots. (eg making threats) (By the way Dwayner got me going on the “Pop Psychologist” bit and that last comment inspires me to ask: just how tall are you guys? My pop sensibility says smaller than average. Let us know. Stop looking down I was referring your height!) In previous posts I mentioned that last year I removed a load of bolts installed on protectable yet almost always top roped crag. This action got the message back to the errant bolter without the bravado. He stopped his rascally actions. I would note that before he bolted I told him what I would do if he did. These guys believe that by creating controversy they can have their moment in the sun. Regards, PP

Pope - Classy as usual. And again, as usual, inane as ever. With Retro and his sidekick you guys rival the Three Stooges. The funny thing is that the consensus seems to be that everyone wants to limit any bolting by protectable cracks and yet you guys want to make a nasty conflict. Sad. Sad. Sad. It does however reinforce my point about the argument being more important than the cause.

Dwayner quote: How would you know such a thing? If we don't attend the same meetings or outings as you, and aren't personally recognized by you, than you know that we aren't giving back???!!! You probably couldn't pick me out of a line-up and vice-versa. Noggin - Dwayner is insinuating (see def 2) that he does. Then he tries putting you on the defensive. In the interests of clarity I say Dwayner start naming your events. Name and Dates please. Most recent first. He's using the I can't argue so I'll try running over you. From most recent backwards. PP [ 06-18-2002, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Dwayner quote: "Are you insinuating that I "enjoy the rant more than the cause"? Quite a bold statement from someone who doesn't know me. Your vocabulary is a lot bigger than your facility with logic. Many of your posts are loaded with baseless assumptions such as the comment I just quoted." Peter quote: "Jay of course you are correct, but simply put they enjoy the rant more than the cause." Def Websters: Insinuate: 1.to introduce or work into gradually, indirectly and artfully. 2. to hint or suggest indirectly;imply I believe I was quite direct not an insinuation at all. Dwayner quote: Your vocabulary is a lot bigger than your facility with logic. Hmm No comment. And if I was wrong about claiming you edited your comments was that error a baseless assumption? I'll let others decide. Now even I am bored with this discussion.

LOL I am a reactive spewer Cavey. Marching to the defense of the American Way! Actually for once I have been out climbing stealing crags out from underneath you.

Actually good point since Dwayner ridiculed the Index cleanup. Saying somehting to the effect that one man and a trash bag was all that was needed. Seems he doesn't get very far off the beaten track. The amount of trash thrown of the Upper Wall is unbelievable. Those who took the time to clean up trash, trim/repair trail are busy building good relationships with land managers. Those that bitch just show their ignorance or their spweing nature. Kudos to all that particpated in the clean-up.

Jay of course you are correct, but simply put they enjoy the rant more than the cause. Dwayner has gone back and edited his comments. On eof the things he edited out was a claim to haviung success turning a couple of climbers away from the dark side. Now assume that there are thousands of climbers in Wa. Now look in the guidebooks and see the relatively small number of people actually placing bolts. How many expected bolters has he really prevented? 1/5000? 1/10,000. Who know maybe he stopped someone just as their finger was compressing the drill trigger. Now let's go back to the small number of drillers? Clearly by turning one of these he would prevent much "damage." Yet do they reach out to the drillers? The answer to that is obviously no. They choose instead to minimize their effectiveness for the joys of spewing forth on the internet.

Doug R quote: “an assertion that the climbing experience cannot be measured by an expression of pitches per hour, that a climb cannot be reduced to maps and decimals. That the motions of climbing, the sharpness of the environment, the climber's reactions are still only themselves and their dividends of joy personal and private.” Don’t forget that this was in essence a marketing campaign intended to sell gear. Marketing hype of the 70’s combined with the romantic notion that the outdoors was character building. Surely the quickest scan of CC.com will send that notion down the crapper! As with most ad campaigns they seem to age faster than scat. Just a few years later the same company was claiming the superiority of “passive” camming devices (ie Hexes) over Friends! I am happy to that I rarely ever free climb with pins anymore. However, our man Royal while extolling the virtues of “clean” climbing was wont to include pins on his rack after the advent of clean climbing. For example, The Incubus at Lover’s Leap. “You hoi polloi do what we say as we do what we want” is the message coming thru loud and clear. As Pope and Dwayner have mentioned several times another article that they found influential was written by Doug Scott. For years Doug did indeed extol the virtues of clean climbing, the noble retreat and all. However, when climbing in the Himalayas (with former Seattle man Greg Child no less) he and his team were faced with a personal decision: Should they place a bolt and succeed or retreat and maintain their ethic purity. They expressly discussed a friend who despite being a fine climber was having trouble getting sponsorships because he lacked “summits”. Deciding that summits equal $ and $ equal future climbs Doug did not vote against placing the bolt. Of course how this essay relates to sport climbs where neither clean or nailed protection is useful is not quite clear. Equally unclear is its relationship to hangdogging. [ 06-20-2002, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

I am ashamed to relate this true story: This morning over breakfast on of my kids said - and I am not joking - "let's go hiking on Mt. Rainier" Impressed that he knew Mt Rainier was hiking I am nonetheless fearful where such behavior will lead. Tonight it's off the the climbing gym with him!

Ah Pope as usual you miss the point big time! Here is a quote:"Don't you find it alarming that in this thread climbers are voicing disapproval of bolting next to cracks? Why are we even wrestling with this question?" No one here is advocating bolting next to cracks. There is no wrestling. Mostly the discussion is about finding ways discover why it is happeneing and put an end to it. There really was no question about the properness of bolting cracks. The wrestling has more to do with how to prevent such behavior. Had a pro crack bolter actually shown up advocating his/her beliefs then you might be right. At first one poster declared a crack bolted for the express purpose of selling guides. Later it was deemed merely a matter of poor judgement despite the good intentions of the FA party. Other routes claimed to be poorly bolted were later declared valid sport climbs. Some others were called poorly bolted. Oh how the facts have twisted around. Yet they are important because they do indeed impact how someone might initiate a discussion with the bolters or even how one would frame the discussion in a public enviroment. Of course you first raise that most "noisey" of claims - sport climbers are cowards. What a canard. I think that most climbers do in fact have an awareness that some people do not like bolts. I also think that most have come to a different conclusion as to the vileness of bolt than you and Dwayner. To think that you are opening others eyes to the "bolt debate" is such a pompous charade. Although if you do indeed hold such a view then it is obvious that you must view others with the utmost contempt. Come to think of it Pope you have already expressly admitted that. Your collective views are neither new, unique, or insightful. Keeping my hug to myself this time. PP

Good man!

LOL Erik he must have sent you a PM too. Do what I do just delete them. I mean has he ever said anything worth reading in a thread? If not why would a PM be any better? PP

Crack - Where is that list?!?!?!?!

Szy - Thanks for your reply. I don't really know Viktor but in our few passing interactions he seemed like a nice guy. I am not for the needless bolting of cracks either. I get tired of the antibolter particularly the noisemakers making all kinds of BS assunptions regarding peoples motivations and just spewing forth invective. Was the route bolted to sell more books or is there a less sinister explanation? Does it really matter? Sending him an email and explaing your point of view seems far more productive than watching the noise flare up - particularly if one side has already tuned out. You want to know why they are becoming more prevelant - find out who is doing it and asking them. Dwayner - Ouch! PP

Dwayner - I will assume it's the jet lag talking as your response was so pitiful but also revealing. You evidently see no reason to enter into a friendly discussion but would rather just be "noise" to use your own words. Glad you are finally admitting what I have said all along: you are just full of senseless chatter. Now you admit the strategy - make noise, make a fuss and hey - "the man" will come in on your side. How can you loose? Poor Pitiful Professor I don't argue that its been ineffective but rather its of neglible efficacy when compared to the more congenial alternatives. While not a "pop pyschologist" either by vocation or recreation, I would hazard that your "noise" is reflective of a parsimony of spirit and would suggest that over time being negative is harder than being constructive. Since the DDD thread what has happened? Well? Sounds like some are claiming quite alot! And it's not what you wanted. Well I am off to the climbing gym got to beat the crowds you know! Still have a hug for you Dwayner. Come and get it. PP

Longest day of the year - Climbing until 10pm See you at the Town Walls

Zoo is too smokey for me.

Dwayner – The Erik you “like” must be the one that agrees with you! But Erik is right your behavior and some others here on this site has betrayed the fact that you would all rather flash a cutting remark than seek a solution to a problem. As such your actions do take “away from contructive thinking in this situation.” Of course to the extent they do that you are no different from and perhaps worse than those you criticize. Kenny G wasn't mentioned because he is eternal! Still giving hugs! PP

Crackbolter - List the anchors. Those out to remove bolts why dont you also replace a bad anchor or put chains on a webbing anchor for every bolt you pull?