mattp

I don't know about you, Klenke, but I think the Beckey Route is one truly 5.6d rock climb. Many a party has been caught unprepared for what they found there. I saw them in the parking lot and I said it then: "right on" Dryad!!! ( Right on Brian and your third, too.)

I have a friend who insists that his own home-made hardware is safer than anything you could buy from Fixe or Metolius. To my eye, his stuff still looks home-made, but it does look as if it is made well. Could it be that somebody who has been installing this stuff on Lundin has a similar misttrust for "production line" gear? If somebody wants to go up there and replace the stuff, I suppose they could put Metolius rap hangers all over the place - I think those would look plenty stout even to my "doubting thomas" friend and it would also satisfy the rest of us who look at anything other than recognizable brand-name climbing equipment with immediate suspicion.

You may be right about that, Trask. But, sadly, I'm afraid we gotta stick it out. The question now is, how do we get other countries interested in helping pay for all of this. Ms. Rice was correct this morning when she said that they all have a stake in having this mess straightened out, but exactly how and to what extent and under what circumstances should Bush and Co. be willing to give up control? Do you think we'll be able to expect other nations to pay for all of this if they have no say in how their money is going to be spent?

On Friday morning the smoke was so thick in parts of the upper Methow Valley that you could literally not see more than a couple hundred yards.

I'm "fucking serious," Fairweather. Yes, some action against Bin Laden and Al Queda would have been justified but in fact it looks to me as if we did not target them - we took over Afghanistan and let Bin Laden and Al Queda go. If Bin Laden was the real target, wouldn't we have waited to start the invasion until we knew exactly where he was?? MAYBE there are fewer active training camps, but it is equally likely that there will be much MORE support for Al Queda - for the next 30 years or more - as a direct consequence of our recent actions. If you will recall, the 911 hijackers were almost all from Saudi Arabia -- but we did not attack Saudi Arabia. No, I do not believe that 911 was justification for our Afghanistan adventure.

Timmy- I believe you can add my name to the list as well.

RuMR- At the gym she'll mostly meet gym climbers. Yes, some of them have experience and skills appropriate for what I term "real" climbing but I bet that, on any given night, most of the people who she will meet there - the ones that are hanging about looking to strike up a conversation with an unknown female - do not. On this board, I think the ratio of climbers qualified to take her to Leavenworth or Mount Baker to those who are not is probably a little higher. And the gym costs - what - fifteen or twenty dollars a visit? If she's interested in climbing real mountains and real crags she'll probably make at least three visits to the gym before she makes the date to go to Leavenworth or Mount Baker. She could bring that 60 dollars to pubclub and she'd have a partner for the next coming Saturday. Or she could save her money and use it to buy gas and start chatting with whomever sends her a message on this board. She'll still have to figure out how to tell the wheat from the chaff, but at least on this board it is free.

In the interest of offering balance and perspective (sometimes dismissed as dinosaurial delusion) I'll suggest that you skip the gym -- at least until the real winter weather settles in -- and look for people who would be able to safely take you up some "basic" climbs in the "outdoors. " Examples would be Midway on Castle Rock in Leavenworth or one of the easier routes on Mount Baker. You've suggested that you actually like hiking and being outdoors, so I'm guessing you might find such experiences more exciting than hanging out in the gym and, even though I know it goes contrary to modern practice, I think you can learn more about rock climbing on real crags and the only place to learn much about snow and ice climbing is on real mountains. If you want to train, or to develop rock climbing skills that are primarily useful for a very specific type of climbing (sport climbing), or if you want to meet lots of young climbers, go to the gym. Post on this site and you'll find partners (you may already have gotten fifteen private messages) and my guess is you'll be OK if you go to Leavenworth or the Exit 38 with some anonomous poster from cc.com, but obviously you'll have to use some judgment. The same will be true at "Ropeup" (Beckfest), though, and you'll similarly have to be careful about meeting somebody in the gym and then going climbing "outdoors" with them.

Actually, it has become the NEW BITCH ABOUT DWAYNER THREAD. But I suppose that is OK, if we're making progress toward thinking through the perameters of the NEW ROCK CLIMBING FORUM.

The description on the main board says it is a forum for discussing the joys of rock climbing with Peter Puget.

Don't misunderstand me -- if you can make some headway toward cutting out the juvenile spew and antabonistic rhetoric from even a tiny slice of the board, I'm all for it. I'm just questioning what it is that is to be expected of the NEW ROCKCLIMBING FORUM and, in the case of Dwayner, I wonder if he may be receiving special treatment.

RuMR, you must be referring to the new "BETA ONLY" forum.

I agree with you there, Mr. P., but it would be a new development if the moderators of cc.com adopted a policy of cutting posts that they perceive those as childish attempts to put down others and gain attention or otherwise exhibit some form of "bad behavior." In my view, Dwayner is no more of an impediment to thoughtful bolting discussions than some others around here.

I disagree with you and Puget on this point, Mr. White. In my view, the NEW ROCK CLIMBING FORUM would in fact be the most appropriate place for a discussion of bolting practices. I think Erik has hit closer to the mark: Dwayner has become tiresome with his constant recycling of the same spew, and he has less credibility on this matter than active rock climbers. However, there are many of us on this site who repeat the same old arguments ad nauseam and speak(spray) with little credibility. Is THE NEW ROCK CLIMBING FORUM a unique part of the board where we are going to be expected to be respectful and thoughtful and stuff?

I agree with all that you just stated, Erik, but I also hope that we don't just try to "cut and run" from Iraq. I think that neither invasion was justified, but now that we are there I think we have an obligation to try to be sure that both countries land on their feet.

Dale- I did not state that I have never heard of injuries in a short fall -- I have heard of plenty and my brother boke his ankle in a short fall just a few months ago. I was referring to prior discussion of the advantages of the "softer" catch afforded by "the hop" and I said that I, personally, had never heard of an injury caused solely by the shock of the catch. If you read the discussion, you would also see that I said I fully believe that Rudy was hurt by being "short roped." However, in this and in prior discussions I have repeatedly stated, and I continue to believe it is true, that when the rock is not overhanging, the shorter you fall, the less is the danger of hitting things. In my own experience, I have also found that pieces generally either hold or fail - that is, that a dynamic belay is usually not going to make the difference between a piece that holds and one that does not hold. Read carefully here: OUTSIDE OF SPORT CRAGS AND GYMS, most rock-climbing falls take place on terrain that is not overhanging. The modern technique of having the belayer hop up to, in effect, let rope OUT is one that I would recommend in very limited situations (generally where the leader is on overhanging terrain with no prospect of hitting anything if he or she isn't pulled back toward the rock and belayer is on the ground or a very good ledge). Yours and others' responsed to my arguments on this point seem to ignore the fact that I specifically have said that I see the value of the dynamic catch where it is most commonly used. Laugh all you want, but then see if you can understand and respond to what I wrote.

Thanks for the update. The smoke in the upper Methow Valley was so thick the last few mornings that you couldn't see accross the valley and the fire trucks and helicopters were racing up and down the valley about every hour or two, though I talked to a firefighter this afternoon who said that the fire had not really threatened the homes up there yet. Did it blow up today?

I'd say the west slabs descent is probably as good as Catbird's way, Gary. The easiest way back to the top of Catbird's descent involves at least two raps which provide opportunities to get a rope stuck and there is also a bit of wandering about involved -- then four or five raps (I haven't rapped this way)with the last being extremely low angle or you can down climb, and then you have to find your way back to the start of the route. All things considered, the West Slabs descent is the way I'd go. By the way - way to go, completing the climb to the top of the dome. Yes, there is some run-out climbing up there, but it really isn't all that bad and I find it illustrative of how they younger generation these days just can't cut it that 90% or better of the parties on the W. Buttress routes rap from the terrace these days rather then completing the climb. (From there, Catbird's descent sounds like it may be the best way down though I'd take Jacob's Ladder for sentimental reasons.)

That is exactly the point made in the forward to the new printing of "Blinded by the Right" - that despite the fact that he provides copious details which are extremely easy to verify, nobody mentioned in the book has come forth to say that he has lied or made a mistake. And he calls everybody who is anybody in the neoconservative movement a liar and tells on what day and in which place they lied. The fact that nobody argues with what he has written goes a long way to suggest that he was correct. It does appear that many of the conservative icon's have a serious problem with fact checking, doesn't it? Sadly, it seems, most people who listen to Rush Limbaugh or read Ann Coulter or Bernard Goldberg don't care.

cd

Just last night he told me it was going to come out in October.

Try reading the books, rather than just looking at the title. At least these books from the "left" contain more than the mostly unsubstantiated allegations and random spew of a book like "Bias."

I'm with you there, Greg. That is why I like Darrington -- there is some "alpine feel" to it. But in my book, strictly speaking, it is not truly "alpine;" there are no glaciers; an essential ingredient for "alpine climbing" is a glacier or at least year 'round snow. The factors, "Nice exposure, no easy way off, route finding, and no easy rescue" simply make it what I would call "interesting." My favorite type of climbing, for the purpose of answering Dryad's initial question, is "interesting" climbing. That may be found in Death Valley or the Alaska Range. Perhaps what I mean is what is commonly referred to, often rather derisively, as "adventure climbing."

Good call, Dru. I recently looked at David Parker's racking thingamajig and thought that it looked pretty good for racking ice screws. But I suppose that means I should get with the program and be sure to have a hammer holster specifically made for my ice tools, a collection of draws that I use only for sport climbing, a belay 'biner that may be different from the one I use for rapelling, extra light ones for some climbs and bigger ones for ice climbing, and ovals for aid and .... The racking clips DO look good -- don't get me wrong. But I find that I kind of like the Petzl Spirits for just about every application, and they are not the lightest but then again they are not really very heavy either.... And I do not use my ice screws when I use them to clip gear to my harness. hmmmm; can one 'biner do it all? It is all a personal choice, agreed.

I have had problems using the wire gate 'biners in the winter where I rack ice screws directly to my harness with them and they unclip themselves so I inadvertently leave a screw behind at a belay. This has happened several times, and I have never had it happen with any other type of carabiner. I also do not like the aggressive gate hooks on the wire gate biners - especially for racking wired stoppers.