mattp

PP: Yes, they lied. That HAS become the party line, and it is about time in my opinion. The American public should have been more clearly informed of this BEFORE the last election but it is never too late to reassess things when your government is run by crooks. Those who have been paying attention have known what a pack of liars the entire Bush government was since before he even made that State of the Union speech. I started calling Bush a liar right after 9/11 and, in a February 2003 thread I pointed out the lies with the Uranium purchase, aluminum tubes, etc. on this board and it is my story and I'm sticking to it as long as somebody like you tries to argue otherwise. Do you actually contend they were not lying? Yes or no? Not "well, if only you would consider my semantic pedanty, obfuscation, and misdirection...."* *apologies to KK.

PP: I don't really care whether there was some arguable difference beteween immminent and gathering - get it? The plain fact is, they said that we might see a mushroom cloud over Manhattan before any U.N. inspectors could do their work. They said we had to attack Iraq right away and couldn't wait, and their justifications for this assertion were lies. Stir the mud and inflate all the smokescreen all you want, but it boils down to LIES. They KNEW their own intelligence was telling them they were lying but they didn't want to believe it so they rejected anything that didn't support their arguments for war (and that is being generous -- more likely they out-and-out lied rather than fooled themselves into lying). How many agents or analysts have come out and said "I told them there were weapons?" None. How many have said "I told them there were not?" Several. And virtually all the published or reported information from the time, except for the claims of a very small number of Iraqui "ex pats" on the U.S. payroll, said that any claims that they posed a threat, and any actual threat, were at best, weak. It is really very difficult to see how you might still believe they legitimately believed what they were saying. Your talk of a "canard" is just a dodge (I still wonder if this is some kind of duck?).

In some cases, tariffs and other restrictions on foreign trade are intended to address these kinds of regulatory issues. Other reasons include a desire to shore up a home-grown industrty for any number of purposes including "preserving the traditional way of life," or pork, as I noted already, but also to maintain a viable industry that is deemed necessary for military or public defense purposes, or to encourage/discourage certain allocations of resources that have been determined desireable for any number of reasons good and bad.

Jay, take the example of air-quality. No company has ever cleaned up their act due to market forces or consumer demand in any substantial way, as far as I can recall (I'm sure you could find an example or two, but these would be exceptions that prove the rule), and I wouldn’t think it a step in the right direction simply to have all refineries, smelters, etc. move off-shore to some country where there is little or no environmental regulation. I am for government intervention, and even international regulation here. Take another area: antitrust law. There is a reason we try to limit the growth and power of monopolies in this country. Critics of the modern law appear to me to have forgotten their history lessons. Or another example: public safety. As I understand it, market forces would not have resulted in the standardization of even seat belts in American cars because, from the manufacturers' standpoint, the cost of installing them did not yield sufficient profit. I suppose you could say that if the African consumer doesn’t want to be subject to our modern safety standards, we shouldn't force them, but I think this would be wrong. How about workers' safety? OSHA is a joke, but without it we'd have miners dying of black lung, industrial accidents would be much more common, and public health would be substantially less. And I believe it is wrong, too, to the extent that through advocating free trade we encourage laborers in distant lands to be subject to unsafe working conditions. Again, I am for government intervention and at least some measure of international regulation when it comes to public safety - for both consumers and workers. I believe you are right that the free market is often good at encouraging efficiency, but there are many important costs and benefits that do not get taken into account in any marketplace. I agree that some subsidies or tariffs may be ill advised and many may involve some nationalistic or romantic affection for an outdated or inefficient way of life, while others may simply be a special brand of pork, but I think it is both naive and ignores history to suggest that we should discontinue the entire concept.

Darin - have you been up Mt. Pugh? That looks like a very worthy neighbor of Whitechuck.

I can't dispute the idea that Toyota and Honda have effectively competed with GM and Ford, Jay, and indeed there may have been an increase in the economic prosperity or civil rights enjoyed by the common Chinese or Indian citizen as a result(do you have any actual information on this or did you simply make that up? ) but I remain skeptical that "reduced government intervention" is really the goal here so much as increased freedom for business. You bristle at my mention of a suspicion for “corporate power,” and I have to admit I throw the term about rather lightly without really even knowing exactly what it is that I am suspicious of, but your unbridled support for George W. Bush’s economic policies and Adam Smith’s invisible hand smacks of an equally naïve world view.

KK: Please list all the mobile biological weapons labs they found. How 'bout nuclear weapons labs or a nuclear weopons program at all? Terrorist training camps? Actual connections between Saddam and al queda? Yes, they were trying to build some intermediate range missiles, but "not" and "none" are a pretty descriptive of the reality that our guys did not find what our president said was there. To say there was in fact "not enough," "insufficient" or "less than" what was broadcast would be an out and out lie. And you complain that those damn lefties like to distort or confuse things?

I'm not sure that the "free trade" agenda is at the root of it about reducing government intervention so much as it is about increasing corporate power. We shall see. Certainly, the Repubs have sought to relax environmental regulations over the last several years and they tout this as "decreasing government intervention," but in other areas like tort reform or birth control they actually want to impose MORE intervention. Here again, I'm not sure that reducing government intervention is much more than a campaign slogan swallowed by those who want to believe or, as KK says, have partaken of the koolaid. Those who say they are for it would cry socialism if some damn liberals made significant moves toward reducing corporate welfare.

CJF is right. Isolationism, protectionism, and more state intervention have become "Right" values more than "Left." Remember GW's campaign speaches about how he was not interested in "nation-building?" Remember five years' rhetoric about how homeland security is going to make you safer? Remember how "no-bid contracts" and changes in the law to favor oil development - were going to promote ecomoic growth --- this month?

Fairweather is vying for second place in the "whopppers" awards. Clearly, Bush with his "I'm a centrist and I will reach across the aisle" was the ultimate manipulator (liar) here... Go Fairweather!!!!

Right now, east slope peaks or those further south appear to be better choices. Silver Star Mountain or Mt. Adams might be better than Baker or Shuksan, and the Three Sisters in Oregon might even be better. (Steens Mountain might be even better if you don't want a bunch of new snow.) Of course, if the North Cascades is your target zone, you might pick an objective that does not involve so much high elevation struggle. This weekend the freezing level is 3000' but it is bound to go higher next week. (By the way, the "north ridge" on Mt. Shuksan may not be a route. There is the "North Face" route, which is really the North-Northeast Face, and perhaps the right perimeter of it might be said to be the "North Ridge," but I'm not sure.) In general, November and December are probably the worst months of the year for North Cascade climbing.

I don't know if "Leftists" is the lable I would ascribe to, but I would be very happy to see a party to the left of Atilla the hun (and George Bush) that could espouse some actual vision. Perhaps the current liberal political model of striving to offend nobody while saying nothing is "viable" in the sense of how it plays in the polls (maybe it gets the "threshold percentage every time), but I don't think it gives anybody (me at least) anything to really fight for.

I'm sorry, but what was PP's last "rejoinder" -- a bunch of nonsense or was it supposed to mean something? I'm trying here .. really!

Keep on swinging, KK. Liberals spinmiesters outdo the rightwing talk show crowd? “My side” is losing? Well there you may have me. For now at least. There is no viable liberal party – I’ll give you that. All the Dems do is wait and hope that the Repubs fall apart on their own. That does not a liberal party make. (Of course, at the momemnt they seem to be well-founded in thinking the Repubs might fall apart on their own...) (Meanwhile, if you want to google the examples of hypocritical wordsmithing that we exchanged above, I'm waiting for your comment...)

What kind of nonsense are you speaking here, PP? They clearly said that Iraq had nukes or was seeking to obtain them and that that we might see a mushroom cloud over Manhattan before any arms inspectors could do their work. By the way: what is a canard? Is that some kind of duck? The "gathering" vs "imminent" business was just a BS dodge to try to divert attention from the fact that they lied or at least distored so that others would spread a lie that would frighten the American public (and Congress) into going along with their deception.

KK, you're just still smarting because they were right about the fact that Saddam wasn't a threat to us, he had no WMD's, an invasion in Iraq was not a part of any war on terror, and it might in fact lead to an increase in terrorism. Why don't you save your scorn for the guys responsible for igoring their own intelligence and getting us into this mess?

Well, I just thought he really hit the ball out of the park with that one. I mean, that is why the right wingers are so proud of this bunch: they have mastered the art of spin unparalleled in American politics and the manipulation of the supposed free press.

Have you read the actual sources for this mis-quoted and distorted representation of what he said? I was just about willing to say "you got me there," except I just ran a quick google search and I found that the distinction may have been (I say may, because I'm not wasting time researching any further) whether the word "is" includes the past tense "was." Thus, it may not have been as trivial a distinction as all the right wing talk show hosts have been maintaining. (Though, I'm still inclined to say "maybe you got me there" because, clearly, it was a manipulative dodge.) Bottom line, though: your stratospherically silly statement about how it is the liberals who distort things remains the nuttiest joke we've seen on this site in years.

"You're doin' a heckuva job, Brownie!" HAVE you read a newspaperin the last five years?

Mr. Catbird writes: I take it he's ready to spring for a pitcher. fixed Catbird's name in title

I'm not so sure about the aplomb, catbird. In the public sphere as well as on this board, the swaggering conservatives most often either blow a gasket and start name-calling or flame-throwing, thye pronounce the discussion "boring" or "naive" or they simply change the topic if somebody checks their facts. It is more like bravado than aplomb.

I have experienced -20f at mid-elevations in the Cascades, but I think most people would consider a 0f to 15f rated bag adequate for Cascade conditions.

It is not worth arguing with him, catbird. The guy obviously hasn't read a newspaper in five years. "debate over global warming" ring a bell? "imminent" or "gathering" threat? "tax credits" for the poor? "social security crisis?" "the death tax causes closure of family farms" (hint: they could not come up with a single example) the party of "small goverment" sound familiar? "leave all children behind" "enemy noncombatants" "the nominee deserves an up or down vote" "healthy forest program" "clear skies initiative" "support the troops" but cut services, pensions, even burial benefits? they are not "private savings accounts" but "personal savings accounts"

That's the biggest joke we've seen on this site in a LONG time.

Petzl Rock Pecker is a good hand drill that takes SDS bits, Pika makes one too.