Retrosaurus

David, It shouldn't be a problem to pick off both in a weekend trip. You could do the approach on Friday afternoon, bivy at Burgundy col, Chianti on Saturday and Burgundy and out to the car on Sunday. It seems that the approach took about three hours but was a real nut-buster. The descents are reasonably straight forward with two ropes for the rappels. There should be water 5-10 minutes below the east side of the col. The wide crack on Chianti is really not that wide; it is really just fists, unless you have small hands. I highly recommend the North Ridge option on the North Face of Burgundy. It has two or three pitches of very aesthetic climbing on a knife edge ridge very high on the spire.

Two words for you, Mr.Puget:Eschew obfuscation. Ditto. A couple of other salient points: By adding fixed protection, we make mountains into something less than mountains. Sport climbing, grid bolting, generalized proliferation of the sport is in the best interests of "the climbing industry" not the best interest of "the sport". Organizations such as the access fund,and the climbing media (magazines), heavily supported by the climbing industry, are primarily concerned with the maintenance of access to climbing areas, and encouragement of large numbers of climbers so that the sport may proliferate. This is not in the best interest of the sport. This organization has done a very good job of entangling these two viewpoints to the point where the general climbing population cannot tell the difference. By making the climbing "safe". Adding fixed protection to routes, larger numbers of climbers are encouraged to visit the mountains. The climbers that this encourages are the ones that lack the judgement/experience to provide their own anchors/safety. As the numbers increase, there are more accidents. Do we really want the Cascades to become the Alps?

Climbers have gotten along quite well without fixed belays on OuterSpace for over 40 years. Are modern climber's so lame as to need them now? You would expect that with modern gear belay bolts would be even less necessary or desireable.

Those bolts are a lame attempt some bonehead with a power drill made to replace the old quarterinchers that had been weakened by weather and time. Instead of pulling the old bolts out drilling out the original holes to 3/8ths and installing new bolts, they just took the quick easy way and put new holes and new hardware in the rock. The intent was good but the results suck. As far as I know the old mangled ones were installed on the first ascent, so in theory replacing them is ok because is an attempt to maintain the climb in the spirit of the original ascent. But putting more holes in the rock is definitely unnecessary. And if there is actually plenty of gear placements available then there is no reason to upgrade them at all. What about the addition of a bolted belay station to the Saber route? These bolts are inches from cracks. Should these bolts go away? And the single bolt on the overhang at The Pearly Gates? Hmmmm??

The blind leading the blind. Please post your destination as soon as you choose one so that the rest of us can avoid being involved in a rescue.

Pearly Gates. SnowCreek trail across the irrigation ditch to the first switchback. The trail is well marked with cairns.

Hey Dru, Cut it out. That hurts.

Space cadet, "Your" thread is now 3 pages long because you are so fun and easy to pick on.

Oh pencil, You keep putting your foot in your mouth and your head in your ass. Must taste terrible. But hey, if you don't know any better I guess it's not that bad. Did we ask the bolters' identities? Yes, Ray and others did. Made quite a production of it too. I don't know how you missed it. It must be kind of hard to see with your head in that dark smelly recess. Viktor said that he knew the bolters and that he would give them the message. (Viktor, were the bolters notified?) And another thing. "Chop" is such an ugly word and not very descriptive of what Ray, Will and I did last week for DDD. "Bolt removal" and "route restoration" are much more accurate terms. Except for that 1/2-inch MFer on the bottom of the route. We had to "chop" that one. But hey, good news! I found the right tool for the job. It's called a Dayton Bar and its 5 feet long! I bet it slips those pesky 1/2-inch bolts out nicely. This little jewel costs 60 bucks though. Anyone want to donate to a good cause?

nerdom, When I find an source for a 48-inch crowbar I'll let you know.

Lambone, Put the crampons back in the box before you hurt yourself (or the livestock). Are you sure you didn't mean spurs?

quote: Originally posted by Pencil Pusher: Retro, To argue with every Tom, Dick and Harry that doesn't appreciate your bullshit shows just how willing you are to hear the bolter's story. I guess it's pull "warm and fuzzy" with a crowbar first, ask questions later, huh? No shit they don't step forward in front of a firing squad. They're all guilty as sin according to you, so it really wouldn't be YOU LISTENING TO THEM, now would it? Wannabe experts all over the damn place. mr penisl puller, I belive YOU started the name calling "asshole". My tone is intentionally antagonistic because I am inviting attack. I will argue with anyone with an oppossing view point. It is especially appropriate in a public forum like this. The bolters have the same opportunity to be heard as I do. And if they feel that they are stepping in front of a firing squad, it is because their actions have overwhelming opposition. The bolter's opinions were solicited long before I removed those bolts. Hell, this is the internet. They could defend their actions and remain anonymous. I did not waste any time stepping in front of the firing squad. I took the first opportunity to do so. It's easy to do when you know you're right. So, take your best shot. Let's hear some more of your leaky arguements. Like this one: "the rock is the loser in the end" or "the rock is the one that suffers". As soon as you look at the before and after of bolt placement and bolt removal, this arguement is over. BTW. The reason I brought up the cost of the crowbar "$8.59 PLUS TAX" is to make the point that it is much more cost effective to remove bolts than it is to place them. bitchslap, You must be poling the community at exit 38 or vertical world. This issue is about Castle Rock/ Leavenworth area, one of the oldest crags in the PNW. (Although it should translate to most other climbing areas.)

You'll need 2 tools and pickets.

mr.penicil puller, Maybe you think that I'm an asshole because with only a year and a half of experience you lack the necessary experienceand perspective to form valid judgements. The only way that the rock is guaranteed to lose is if the community does nothing, allowing this ethical creep to continue. I am open to diplomacy; I always have been. But it takes two sides working together. The bolters did not step forward when before we took action and are not comming out now. WAKE UP. Can this mean anything but admission of guilt and shame? I don't think so. I think the perpetrators don't want to tarnish their reputation by admitting responsibility for their actions.

The rock won this round. [This message has been edited by Retrosaurus (edited 07-20-2001).]

quote: Originally posted by Alasdair: After we identify who they are we should disscuss the issues with them in a level headed way, and not confront them as bitter crusty old climbers. I am fully prepared to discuss the issues in a level-headed way; but I am a bitter, crusty old climber. Just as I feel warm and fuzzy restoring a rock to its original condition, Rap Bolters feel all warm and fuzzy looking up and seeing "their" new shiny ribbon of stainless steel. Am I getting warm, Victor? Are you feeling ill? [This message has been edited by Retrosaurus (edited 07-20-2001).]

quote: Originally posted by Alasdair: I dont understand why the hell we can not sit down as a climbing community and talk about what our ethics should be. This is just what is now happenning. The fact that the retro-bolters have chosen to not take part can only be attributed to one thing: THEY ARE ASHAMED OF THEIR UNJUSTIFIABLE ACT.

quote: Originally posted by viktor: ...(rock) is the one who suffers. Sleep well my vigilante heroes. The rock suffered when it was drilled, not when the bolts were removed. The route is now much nearer to its original condition. And yes, that route is too hard for me. But that does not justify drilling and bolting. If you are foolish enough to supply hangars for this type of retro-bolting/vandalism that's your fault. The route restorers have stepped forward and taken credit for what they have done. Where are those "experienced, well-respected, PNW climbers" that had to drill holes beside cracks to CHOP the route down to their level? They still wish to remain nameless and faceless. Does this tell you any thing? RETRO-BOLTING IS CHICKENSHIT. Mitch (And why don't you fix those topos for Castle Rock; they suck. )

quote: Originally posted by lambone: Ok, sure... puting a bolt next to a crack is a different issue. It's lame, enough said. But in my opinion, if someone goes out and retrobolts a route, the damage is done. The scar is there. You might as well make the best out of it. What the hell good does it do to go out and chop a route leaving a gnarly hunk of metal in the rock, just to prove your point. You need the benefit of before and after pictures. The damage that was done is now minimized. The route is returned to its original climbing condition; no easier, no harder. The "gnarly hunk of metal" has been hammered below the surface of the rock and can be patched to further restore the original appearance. And that crowbar. $8.59 PLUS TAX!!!

You do it your way. I'll do it mine. (Just leave established routes alone.) (And don't place bolts beside cracks. Even if you only have quick draws; and no nuts.)

What about the crowbar?

It made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside as I levered out the first bolt. And a powerful sense of satisfaction came over me as I hacksawed the bottom (1/2") bolt and hammered the stump of the stud back into the hole. The route is now in as close to original condition as it has been since some nameless chickenshit recently perforated it with a power drill and studded it with stainless steel. Many of the bolts were a foot or two from good nut placements, not that that should matter. But I guess the retro-bolters didn't have any nuts; they had a drill instead. I wasn't alone on this project, but was assisted by a couple of other community service minded individuals that I will not name but will let come forward if they choose to. Besides, think of the fun it will be to speculate. Although, that shouldn't be much of a challenge. Now, one more time. Does any one know the names of the "experienced, well-respected, PNW climbers" that should have been smart enough to know better than to retro-bolt on Castle Rock. I figure that they owe me $8.59 plus tax for a severely damaged, but still usable 36-inch crowbar. Not while this dinosaur walks the earth. Mitch (Anyone know where I can get a 48-inch crowbar?)

He's not fat. He's HUSKY.

toketie