Figure Eight or Double Fisherman's Knot???

[Thinker]

DFA, I respectfully disagree. Unless Dru edited his post and changed the image between your post and mine, I belive the knot shown is not rewoven i.e. ringbend. If it were, the ends would be on opposite sides of the knot. What's shown is a typical overhand knot (EDK).

[plexus]

Will do. I wouln't go on verbal or typed information alone.

 

Depends...how rich is your life insuarance policy?

 

I use the figure 8 done like a square knot, shown in the illustration at the top of the forum. Most people I know use the figure 8.

 

I have seen the EDK a few times and it has held, I never felt scared on it...but never had anybody teach me, so I don't use it.

[Thinker]

I like the dbl fish myself. It's a proven winner, matters not if the ropes are of significantly different diameters, and isn't really that tough to untie once you've done it a few times.

 

I've seen conflicting speculation about the applicability of the EDK for ropes of differing diameters, no test data yet (haven't really looke for it either.) My opinion is, why in the world would you want to use a knot where it could matter if the tails are 6" long vs 18" long....sounds like there's a huge amount of slip in the knot.

 

 

[JoshK]

David parker, yes, I use the knot you are referring to, and the one that iain's picture shows. It's a figure 8 with the tails on opposite sides. I have always referred to this as a "rewoven figure eight" I tie it with 1 foot tails. I have heard concern, however, of using this knot to tie two ropes of different diamater. has anybody heard about problems with this?

[iain]

for two ropes of different diam., the "classic" knot is the double sheet bend, backed up by double fisherman's on each side. This is actually the knot used by some mtn rescue units, as it can be untied very quickly even after subjected to a huge (litter, 2 attendants, patient) load. Here's a picture:

 

This is a bit much for rec. climbing, but there it is. It is often taped up after tying to run through kootenays or over edge pro.

[catbirdseat]

what the problem catbirdseat. An overhand knot with long tails on the same side. Simplest knot out there.

 

Someone a while back posted a link to some tests done on the EDK which showed that its ability to hold depended on how it was tightened. The tightest, strongest knot resulted from having all four legs tightened. Longer tails not only decrease the chance that the tails pull through, but they also facilitate the tightening of the knot by giving one more manual purchase on the tail. Many knots are self-tightening. The EDK is not one of them.

 

Yes, it is a simple knot, but things are not always as simple as they appear.

[iceclimer]

Here is a link to the root of my dilemma. I read a tech tip in Rock and Ice saying to use a figure-eight-bend. See the link below

 

http://www.climbing.com/Pages/Techtip_pages/194/image_pages.194/TT-194-trad-fig01.html

[catbirdseat]

The double sheet bend is a good knot and really not hard to learn. It does have the advantage that it works well for ropes of different diameters. As shown, it has the same tendency to hang up that a double fisherman has, though.

[Jason_Martin]

The most difficult aspect of this discussion is the need to see exactly what people are referring too... That said, I'm going to respond in words and hope that it makes sense.

 

There is actually more controversy about the figure eight tied the way it is shown in iceclimber's link than there is about the Euro Death Knot. In theory the figure eight tied in this fashion is more likely to roll out of itself than the EDK.

 

The Euro Death Knot is reffered to as such because it is possible that were the knot tied too close to the end of the ropes it will roll out of itself. I personally have not seen this happen nor have any first hand knowledge of injuries or death as a result of this.

 

I use the Euro Death Knot all the time and have not had a problem. However, because it has a scary name and looks a little simplistic I always double check the knot to make sure that it is dressed and that it is well away from the ends of the rope.

 

I have recently adopted the EDK for my cordelletes as well. This is nice because I can untie them and do all sorts of things with them that I couldn't do when they were tied together with a permenately welded double fishermans knot.

 

In October I attended a seminar wherein some well respected guides talked about the advantages and disadvantages of these knots. KC Baum, an AMGA certified rock guide, presented a modification to the EDK which I now use on a daily basis.

 

All he did was add a second overhand knot above the first. In other words he had two EDK's stacked on top of one another. This seems to make a knot that looks a little sketchy feel a whole lot safer.

 

Jason

[catbirdseat]

Makes a lot of sense to back up the EDK. Nice post, Jason. Somewhere I read that if you backup the EDK with another overhand knot, you should do it in a certain order to ensure they are tensioned correctly, but I've forgotten. I think you tie the primary one first.

[gregm]

to further deepen the controversy:

 

my understanding is to use the EDK both ropes should be of the same diameter. if you are using a 9.5 and a 7mm zip line (or whatever) you're better off using the doublefish. discuss.

[Dru]

point of using the edk is it is low profile and doesnt get stuck...backing it up with another knot it makes a bigger clump, more chance of getting stuck... what is sketchier, rapping off a single EDK or jumaring back up a stuck rope when your big clusterfuck of a knot gets stuck... HMMMMMMMMMM tough one

 

as for jason's edk for cordellettes, hmmm, i DONT want mine to accidentally untie thats why i use the double fish instead of an "easier to untie" knot !

[iain]

please lord make it stop

[Necronomicon]

Dru- you're right it is a simple knot but do you really think no one has ever messed up a simple knot?

 

If you cannot tie an overhand knot, you deserve a dirt nap. An improperly tied overhand knot is two untied ropes. Try rapping on those. You'll get a quick lesson on acceleration due to gravity and the conservation of mechanical energy.