j_b Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 LOLZ what's that silly graph supposed to show? what income? While being usually very verbose, JayB certainly doesn't explain his data very much (neither does he give a ref). He must remember the last time I showed that Hong-Kong (usually near the top of those silly "freedom" lists regressives like to fabricate) had widespread slavery among immigrants workers. Come on give us more details so that we can tear it apart. Chicken! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 The two aren't mutually exclusive. You can appreciate all that stuff *and* appreciate not having to travel to fro in a Dodge Stratus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 "Appreciation"? Stop playing the dullard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 forbid the thought of congress nudging Detroit with economy standards toward building cars that suited our needs in 1980. I guess we really had to wait for a couple more resource wars, global peak oil, and plummeting market share to find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 While being usually very verbose, JayB certainly doesn't explain his data very much... Dude, it's like, subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Well, I was wrong insofar as JayB gave a reference and it is indeed that infamous list headed by Hong-Kong where there are 100,000s of domestic workers in virtual slavery. Here is report from 1994 and nothing has changed: Domestic Workers in Hong Kong Print-Friendly Version There are almost 130,000 foreign domestic workers in Hong Kong, a sharp increase from the 24,600 of 10 years ago. Most are Filipinos--they are preferred because they speak English--the others come from Indonesia, Thailand and Sri Lanka. There are many complaints of physical and sexual abuse. Five organizations have combined to form the Coalition to Combat Violence Against Migrant Workers, to demand protections for migrants and government investigations of abuse against migrant workers. The coalition has also called for employment agencies to be blacklisted if they send maids to employers known to be abusive. Residents of Hong Kong depend upon domestic workers for cleaning and child care. Domestic workers are vulnerable because, if they leave their employer, they have only two weeks to find another employer and sign a contract or face deportation. Hong Kong is planning to import another 3,300 workers to work in retail stores and restaurants. There are 11,000 workers approved for 28 types of industries; most have two-year contracts. However, 10,177 employers have filed applications requesting permission to import a total of 100,490 workers. http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/comments.php?id=426_0_3_0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 It is good to see Bahrain's still in the top ten. And Singapore (I don't really chew gum anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Odds of finding high scores for all of the stuff you cited earlier as being more important than GDP are much better for the top 20 than the bottom 20. Dredge up the scatter plot that shows an inverse correlation between the statistical aggregate of your choosing and all of the EFI scores and we then we'll be getting somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Do you have a scatter plot for the Failed State/Neolib Shock Treatment nexus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Odds of finding high scores for all of the stuff you cited earlier as being more important than GDP are much better for the top 20 than the bottom 20. Thanks to progressives who lead the fight to make all that "stuff he listed" possible. How many of the bottom 20 are developing nations trying to extract themselves from the legacy of colonialism, and the current practice of imperialism that often contributes to the "income" in that mysterious plot of yours? Dredge up the scatter plot that shows an inverse correlation between the statistical aggregate of your choosing and all of the EFI scores and we then we'll be getting somewhere. 36 EFI definitions Electronic Flight Instrument Electronic Fuel Injection Extensible Firmware Interface Electric Fields Investigation Electric Field Instrument Electronic Flight Instruments Electric Fields Instrument Electromechanical Frequency Interferen… Electronics For Imaging Efficient Facilities Initiative Enhanced Fidelity Instrumentation Enrico Fermi Institute European Forest Institute exploding foil initiator Extended Firmware Interface Extreme Forecast Index Education Field Interaction Educational Futures, Inc. Electric Field Instruments Electric Field Investigation Electromagnetic Field Interference Electronic Fligh Instruments Electronic Format Identifier Electronic Forum for Industry Electronically Fuel Injected Endothelial function index Engineer, Furnish and Install Engineered, Furnished and Installed Environic Foundation International Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Ten thousand years of human civilization, five hundred years of the Enlightenment, philosophy, literature, scientific exploration, the limits of consciousness and the totality of your vision for society, for politics, ethics, human progress consists of this corny, reductionist, banal horseshit about buying a car? [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VscVP_Gt_s&feature=related The question bears repeating: what kind of freedom allows the kind of massive growth and consolidation of wealth and power, the rigidification of class inequalities, and the near-paralysis in our ability to solve urgent and growing problems? What kind of freedom reduces humanity's better instincts and aspirations to "stuff" that the people with access can "appreciate" over a glass of wine (or coconut water) while computers and bond-traders decide how to run society? We've traded politics, progress, and the expansion of our definition of freedom for efficiency targets and "consumer choice" while real power becomes more concentrated and the access to education, health, space becomes more restricted to the ability to pay? Where does the will to solve problems that impact us collectively come from in this configuration? "Market democracy" has failed us; it's failed in the conflagration of the financial collapse, it's failing us in the deepening crises it's caused, it's failing us in our ability to address the mounting ecological catastrophe and in our ability to exercise control over a bloated national security state at home and abroad. Trading away an engagement with our collective future by narrowly defining freedom as lifestyle consumption is a grotesque perversion which you need to address Jay, if only through an explication of your irrational fear of "the mob" and your dogged defense of an increasingly indefensible status quo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The question bears repeating: what kind of freedom allows the kind of massive growth and consolidation of wealth and power, the rigidification of class inequalities, and the near-paralysis in our ability to solve urgent and growing problems? What kind of freedom reduces humanity's better instincts and aspirations to "stuff" that the people with access can "appreciate" over a glass of wine (or coconut water) while computers and bond-traders decide how to run society? We've traded politics, progress, and the expansion of our definition of freedom for efficiency targets and "consumer choice" while real power becomes more concentrated and the access to education, health, space becomes more restricted to the ability to pay? Where does the will to solve problems that impact us collectively come from in this configuration? "Market democracy" has failed us; it's failed in the conflagration of the financial collapse, it's failing us in the deepening crises it's caused, it's failing us in our ability to address the mounting ecological catastrophe and in our ability to exercise control over a bloated national security state at home and abroad. Trading away an engagement with our collective future by narrowly defining freedom as lifestyle consumption is a grotesque perversion which you need to address Jay, if only through an explication of your irrational fear of "the mob" and your dogged defense of an increasingly indefensible status quo. Life is pretty good in the US. And don't project your "failure" to succeed on the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Are you retarded? Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Are you retarded? Seriously. Right back at you. Your "points" just smack of the usual whining about the world and how it's not fair or whatever. We live well in the US and you can succeed if you want (and actually try). Whine away about how you have no voice and are manipulated like a puppet by your bogeyman all you want. Or do what you can do have a decent life and then actually enjoy it. Take a look out the window. It's pretty damn nice out. Is "the man" keeping you from enjoying that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Maybe just a touch of retardation in there somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Hey man, I already did that with j_bot, but it was about autism, and the execution was better. So, like, get your own put-downs, internet pseudo brain smart guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Yeah, I hate it when that happens too. If you're really worried about it... Link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Ten thousand years of human civilization, five hundred years of the Enlightenment, philosophy, literature, scientific exploration, the limits of consciousness and the totality of your vision for society, for politics, ethics, human progress consists of this corny, reductionist, banal horseshit about buying a car? [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VscVP_Gt_s&feature=related The question bears repeating: what kind of freedom allows the kind of massive growth and consolidation of wealth and power, the rigidification of class inequalities, and the near-paralysis in our ability to solve urgent and growing problems? What kind of freedom reduces humanity's better instincts and aspirations to "stuff" that the people with access can "appreciate" over a glass of wine (or coconut water) while computers and bond-traders decide how to run society? We've traded politics, progress, and the expansion of our definition of freedom for efficiency targets and "consumer choice" while real power becomes more concentrated and the access to education, health, space becomes more restricted to the ability to pay? Where does the will to solve problems that impact us collectively come from in this configuration? "Market democracy" has failed us; it's failed in the conflagration of the financial collapse, it's failing us in the deepening crises it's caused, it's failing us in our ability to address the mounting ecological catastrophe and in our ability to exercise control over a bloated national security state at home and abroad. Trading away an engagement with our collective future by narrowly defining freedom as lifestyle consumption is a grotesque perversion which you need to address Jay, if only through an explication of your irrational fear of "the mob" and your dogged defense of an increasingly indefensible status quo. Maybe we should just read each other passages from the Paul Ehrlich v Julian Simons debate from the 70's? No need to point out to a Critical Studies jockey like yourself that better and worse are incredibly subjective - but for me it's hard to look at any arbitrary point in the past and find someplace where I'd like to make time stand still, much less any time in history where the global aggregate of misery and suffering was lower. Market democracy has failed compared to what? Things worse relative to when? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Apparently the charge of "relativism!" is only valid when applied to others. You can't make any determinations about better from worse? How is this anything other than a complete cop-out and a turn away from democratic politics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Apparently the charge of "relativism!" is only valid when applied to others. You can't make any determinations about better from worse? How is this anything other than a complete cop-out and a turn away from democratic politics? worse = the status resulting from whatever changes people like you would effect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Apparently the charge of "relativism!" is only valid when applied to others. You can't make any determinations about better from worse? How is this anything other than a complete cop-out and a turn away from democratic politics? worse = the status resulting from whatever changes people like you would effect I think it's "affect?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Apparently the charge of "relativism!" is only valid when applied to others. You can't make any determinations about better from worse? How is this anything other than a complete cop-out and a turn away from democratic politics? worse = the status resulting from whatever changes people like you would effect I think it's "affect?" No, it's effect. "infect" would also be a propos in the case of Prole's agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Pretty sure it's "affect." But I always get these two confused. http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/affect.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The question bears repeating: You can ask all the questions you want but don't expect any relevant answers from the King of the Dodge. Attacks on your person by the resident far right wing moron are really the only sure things around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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