DonnieK Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 BD's new crampons are stainless steel. Anyone have any experience with these yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_e Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 They are Cyborgs that are made of SS, no apparent design change. I am pretty sure the front points are not stainless. I am want to try the Camp Nanotech crampons, they are superlight (794 g) vs. 1120 for the Cyborgs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevino Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 From the Grivel website : What does stainless steel mean? Stainless steels, like all other steels, are iron based alloys containing at least 12% chrome, enough to ensure their resistance to corrosion from atmospheric agents or oxidizing acid solutions. The definition of "stainless" refers to the steels'ability to maintain a shiny surface and resist corrosions, like rust even during long exposures to the air or atmospheric agents. Their corrosion resistance is due to an extremely thin coat of chrome oxide that forms automatically in an oxidising environment on surfaces of steels with at least 12% chrome alloy, it is almost invisible to the human eye. Have there been any new developments in technology or in alloys that have radically transformed the accepted characteristics of stainless steel? Stainless steels have been produced and utilised for nearly a century in the three traditional classes that are named after the principal components of their microstructure: austenitic, ferritic and martensitic stainless steels. There has been little change over the years though industry has introduced a wide variety but always within the former three classes, all focussing on improving resistance to corrosion. One innovation, in use for at least 30 years, were duplex steels, an austenitic/ferrite mix, that solved corrosion problems in a marine environment, for example on off-shore rigs. What would be the best choice between the classes of stainless steels to manufacture crampons? Basically stainless steels were invented and are used to resist corrosion that isn't a problem as crampons are only subject to atmospheric agents. So the only advantage using stainless steels to manufacture crampons would be aesthetic, maintaining a shiny, metallic surface. However there are many surface treatments that give a good appearance even on non stainless steels. Could it be a good choice from a practical point of view? Any future use of stainless steels for crampons must be considered from a practical point of view. Crampons can be considered to be tools, though very particular ones. In order to work properly they mustn't give way or be liable to break, the materials for crampons must be user resistant and therefore extremely rigid and non-deformable, whilst maintaining an excellent toughness, meaning resistant to fractures and cracks. This isn't a simple problem because unfortunately in all metallic materials, including steels, extreme hardness and toughness are incompatible characteristics: you can't have a very hard and very tough metal at the same time. So, it is necessary to choose a "compromise" metallic material, which is by its composition a microstructure, attained by suitable techlogical processes, could be hard enough whilst maintaining its toughness. From this point of view most stainless steels, created and used to solve corrosion problems and not material strength, have totally inadequate characteristics to be used in the manufacturing of tools like crampons. In particular, ferritic and austenitic stainless steels, the most resistant to corrosion, are soft materials and, at least the austenitics, very tough but easily deformable and therefore almost useless for this type of tools. The martensitics on the other hand could be suitable from a rigidity and toughness point of view even though there are steels with better mechanical characteristics. But the martensitics have an inferior resistance to corrosion and rust formation than the other stainless steels, so much so that some technical norms don't even consider them to be stainless steels but only corrosion resistant steels. Basically martensitic stainless steels have a tendency to rust thereby lacking both the mechanical and aesthetic advantages. It is often claimed that stainless steel weighs less than Chromolly steel - is this true? No, practically all steels have a similar density: the difference varies by about 1%. So it isn't true that stainless steels are lighter. It is claimed that stainless steels maintain a better and sharper edge for longer than chromolly steel - is this true? No, the ability to "maintain an edge" depends mainly on the hardness but this must be weighed up alongside the toughness, the resistance to fractures, which remains the most important feature. With a similar toughness chromolly steel is harder and therefore better preserves a sharper edge than the martensitic steel. Could there be an advantage when using in lower temperatures compared to chromolly steel? No, in all high strength steels, including both chromolly and martensitic steels, toughness diminishes as the temperatures falls at very low values. So both steels behave in the same way. Is it true that the build up of snow under crampons happens less with stainless steel? No, this claim has no scientific basis. Remember that stainless steels might look like metal but aren't, as they are just covered with a thin layer of chrome oxide.(*) Our past experience and trials showed that it was more difficult to manufacture stainless steel than with chromolly steel, especially during the bending process, as micro fractures, creating probable future cracks, tend to form creating potential risks for the user. Is this still true? The same consideration goes for this aspect as earlier ones: hardness on the one hand and toughness and deformability are incompatible features for all steels and in general all metals. The treatments and processes that increase the hardness will inevitably reduce the toughness. As the basic rigidity of martensitic steel is inferior to that of chromolly steel , in order to give a suitable hardness to the stainless steel a part of the toughness must be lost, creating a greater risk of cracking during both manufacture and use. But would the crampons really be stainless? As we have already seen, martensitic stainless steel, theoretically the only stainless steel suitable for crampons, is the less resistant to corrosion and rust formation and therefore over time would lose its aesthetic advantage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We then got in contact with the RD department of one of the best known ski manufacturers asking why they don't use stainless steel for ski edges. There are two reasons. One, because they believe that it doesn't maintain the sharpness like the low alloy steels currently used and two, because following various trials they aren't really stainless as they have to use martensitic stainless steel and consumers don't like using the word stainless when the reality is rust! Then I went at look at my old scuba diving knife made in stainless steel: it is still good to look at but it never cut very well and is now all rusty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnieK Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 I thought the conversion to stainless was kind of strange. Apparently Grivel agrees. I guess I'll try to milk another season out of my old Sabretooths to put off any decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbcbd Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) Post deleted Edited October 12, 2009 by cbcbd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevino Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I think you got your CAMP crampons mixed up. I would totally use the nanotechs for steep ice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbcbd Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Yep, kev, you're right. I was thinking of the XLC Nanotechs, not the Vector Nanotechs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Cyborg doesn't have stainless front points where most of the serious abuse will happen. Stainless in the frame is a good idea imo and it lowers production costs with not needing to add a finish to the chromoly as in the past. Stainless in this case did indeed make the product more user friendly and I don't think will hurt service life. Would I poney up for stainless? Not ntil I had to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_e Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I just ordered the Vector Nanotech's. I will re-post after I've used them. These are probably the lightest technical crampons made and arguably the strongest. CAMP is using some pretty high tech materials for these crampons, "Sandvik Nanoflex". I saw these for the first time at the Ouray ice fest. I was amazed at how thin the metal was. A few excerpts from their website: "Sandvik Nanoflex® offers higher corrosion resistance in aqueous solutions than ordinary stainless steels, such as ASTM type 304." "Sandvik Nanoflex® has attracted a great deal of attention through its combination of hardness and toughness - normally two opposing properties in material physics. Conventional hard steels are brittle." "Cold-forming of hard and brittle materials is normally impossible. Sandvik Nanoflex® is anything but normal. Formable in the as-delivered condition; cutting, turning, grinding and bending present no problem. Once the desired shape has been attained, heat treatment is applied at low temperature, thus dramatically increasing the strength of the final product. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_e Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 This is off the subject a bit, however you may want to think about this image when considering ANY product from Grivel. Maybe they're materials engineers don't know much about aluminum?! More to come... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 It's a good thing BD and Charlet have never, ever, had to recall Ice Tools for material failures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 "This is off the subject a bit, however you may want to think about this image when considering ANY product" for ice climbing! Just thought we should make the statement a bit more fair when it comes to manufactures. Want to guess who has the most failures in ice gear and has for YEARS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Water Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 pls englighten me. thx! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_e Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) Camp Vector Nanotech update - first use POST MOVED HERE: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/921115/Camp_Vector_Nanotech_Crampons#Post921115 Edited November 16, 2009 by dan_e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_e Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 "This is off the subject a bit, however you may want to think about this image when considering ANY product" for ice climbing! Just thought we should make the statement a bit more fair when it comes to manufactures. Want to guess who has the most failures in ice gear and has for YEARS? This is the first failure I've personally seen in 18 years of climbing. I've only owned one product that was ever recalled, the BD Switchblades. They were such pieces of shit, I have no idea why I bought them. Still BD did the right thing and recalled the product. Petzl recently had a recall on the Sarkens and so on... Grivel has pulled out of the US and it's becoming clear they don't care much for the customers they left behind. I am not quite ready to fully disclose the details, but I hope to soon. I am giving them one more chance to do what is right, they have two strikes so far. I have no problem with a company that occasionally makes a mistake and admits it, recalls the product and insures the customer is fully satisfied. In the end we all need to fully assume the risk of relying on the equipment that we use for climbing. It's up to manufacturers to do the best they can to make sure defective product does not make it to the consumer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Grivel North America went out of business - WTF are they supposed to do? Most N. American importers of euro products suck ass compared to the HQ. Deal with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike1970 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 I have been using the BD stainless crampons since the spring and scrambled my way up a lot of ice and rock. I am yet to sharpen them. They made some BIG improvements to the heel bail and compared to my Rambo 4 mono points I can buy replacement front points for less than a months wages. I read the Grivel "marketing message" but we all need to keep inmind that every gear maker will promote their own products, materials and processes over those of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Truth is the major guys all build exceptional ice gear these days. Some stuff breaks...always has. Always going to be little advantages to be sourced out. Take a look at your buddy's B rated pick used for stuff that a T rated pick won't likely survive. None of us have anything to bitch about. Ice gear gets lighter, stronger more efficient and more durable every year. It isn't likely to get cheaper. For those that haven't noticed we've been in a WORLD economic depression for a while. We are damn lucky any of the major tool makers are still in business in any country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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