Mazama Followup

[The Cascade Kid]

In response to my previous post about difficulty with Mazamas, there was some dialogue about the incident with the leader of the group that we think would be valuable to make public. It is presented below for your edification and pleasure.

 

M: Thanks for lending Andy your ice axe. He'd been climbing since '05, that was his sixth peak and second time up S Side. I'm still not sure how anyone could drop both a crampon AND THEN an ice axe.

 

I was the climb leader on that climb that you passed. Although I agree with most things you stated in your TR, a couple things were just a little different. I told you we had a group of beginners, but there were four new beginners out of twelve - I chose to put two directly behind me, and was disappointed with the difficulties they had. One correction - I wouldn't call my reaction 'feisty' but near to apoplexy. The Mazamas spends a lot of time training to ensure SNAFUs like that don't happen and it's damned frustrating to everyone on the mountain when it does. However, my reaction probably did little other than get people more on edge. Gotta work on that.

 

You're right there were four pickets in - but over four rope lengths of 800', not forty. I strongly support protecting beginners and have hauled enough broken legs and body bags off Hood, Alps and Himalaya to ever change that. But it's a royal PITA for other climbers, that's for sure.

 

I, too avoid Mazama groups (and all beginner groups) when climbing for all the same reasons. As the climb leader of such a climb, it's a lot more frustrating to be involved in it than it was to watch, and that's the difficulty with taking beginners - sometimes it's a cluster. But what's the alternative - never teach people how to climb?

 

Monty Smith

 

P:Monty,

It good to hear your end of it. At the time that we encountered you, I was rather frustrated to encounter such a group, but that was obviously not the time to express myself, but rather to help out and then get out of the way.

 

I think the alternative method is not to never teach people to climb, but to instead try to instill in them the same mindfulness that you are using when leading them. It is not the skills that are ultimately important up there, but the ability to make decisions and to discern the proper way of behaving. I say this because there can be no way taught that works all the time; the conditions, the time, the group, these are all in flux, and to teach someone how to climb may be as nebulous a task as teaching someone to lead.

 

Perhaps it is not everyone's inclination as a beginner to study the way that their teacher moves through the terrain around them, as the skills may seem more prescient to acquire what in th beginning are very foreign skills, but as a leader taking beginners into the mountains it must be remembered that at some point they have to set out on their own, and whom would you trust more to the mountains, one who is fully versed in the skills but has no sense of how to handle the flow of decisions that comes with climbing, or one who is conscious of their every move and does nothing without a reason?

 

If I was hard on you in my post I apologize, it was more out of frustration with the situation and the institution than with you. You were in a position that I did not envy, and as long as everyone came down fine, the theory and philosophy is secondary.

 

Might I suggest, given the uncountered stigma against Mazamas, that we make your reply, and mine, public? It has been helpful to me at least to have a voice come out of the crowd, as without a testimony like yours the soapbox chattering just gets out of hand in a sort of alpine climbers' circle jerk.

 

Patrick Fink

 

M:Hi Patrick -

Making it public - sure. I typed it up anticipating there'd be some chance of that.

 

A couple other thoughts regarding the Mazamas and some of the difficulties. We get overfilled every year with the beginner class. There's so much demand it's always overwhelming.

Same thing with any beginner climb offered. 30-40 applicants is pretty common - if you take a full party of twelve (yuk!) you still have to turn away the majority.

 

Having climbed Hood totally clueless and dangerous many years ago, the only thing I can think of that's worse than the Mazamas and their slow crowds is NOT having them there. Then you'd have additional hundreds of clueless untrained climbers just waiting to fall on you. Mazama groups definitely get in the way, but least we don't fall on people.

 

As for me, I dislike taking people I don't know because of the risk that they're not prepared, despite their claimed training and expertise (witness last week's climb!). So I'm going to err on the side of caution, and if that means we're too slow, then we turn around. But in the meantime, I'll try to be aware that we're a big slug blocking the route and minimize the hassle factor to other climbers.

 

Monty

[shapp]

1

Edited May 30, 2009 by shapp

[dan_forester]

Slandering people you don't know isn't really insight. I've met Monty a couple times and your description doesn't sound like him.

 

which isn't to say that the Mazamas don't need to do a better job in general on managing their groups... taking a dozen people on a climb is irresponsible, and I wish they'd examine their policy on group size. I was involved in the Mazamas for a few years but am not any longer - I decided that their practice of mobbing routes with armies of inexperienced climbers was not something I want to be associated with.

 

Dan Forester

[kevbone]

Monty is a friend of mine and a good guy. He just got back from tring to climb Everest, but was stoped due to a bloody nose that would not stop.

[billbob]

Kid, Monty- Good on ya for posting above, looks like an honest assessment of the situation. I support the Mazamas in their goal of educating new climbers and am grateful for their good work, even if it means crowds on the SS. Newbies have to learn sometime. Being a climb leader (or guide) of a big group has to be a damn tough job and particularly so when the inevitable SNAFU occurs. Must take a lot of patience.

Organized groups are always going to be on this route during the peak season, Rainier sees a similar situation, if not worse.

[zaugg]

There's a reason guides pay big $$$ for years of training, and take demanding exams to be certified to guide even this junkshow in other countries.

[Cairn]

Climbing past the Mazamas group as well that day (the solo climber) I thought I would add my 2 cents. I apologize for the late response, I have been a reader of this site for several years but do not usually like to get involved in debates or posting my opinions.

First of I thought your (The Cascade Kid) initial assessment was accurate, in my opinion. While I agree that Mazamas does serve a great gateway to give people access to climbing that might not otherwise undertake the endeavor. I hope that the experience gives them the necessary knowledge, confidence, and safety techniques to go forth and enjoy the mountains again. I do not mean to slander the guide. But I was a bit disappointed that most of the people I passed did not look like they were enjoying their climb. As I walked by on the way down a few grumbled or outright expressed displeasure at the current pace/situation. Now I do hope that a bad experience would not ruin an outing or deter a possible future outing. I know that Mazamas has a responsibility to the safety of their clients as a top priority. As safety should be when climbing; after all, the top is only halfway there. But I would hope that it would be made clear why what they were doing was important while un-roped people walk by them. Yelling at someone to step on the picket and threatening to turn the whole group around if any more mistakes are made didn’t seem to instill much confidence in the group. I don’t know the whole story and my snap judgment was made while passing on the way down.

I could see it being a problem climbing below a large group like this, especially trying to pass them. But on the way down, climbing below the chute it was simple enough to drop down a bit and climb over to the hogs back. Looking back I did see the group turn around where they were and start to down climb.

 

I don’t want to start a forum argument, but reading the second post by The Cascade Kid I thought I would add my 2 cents as well. By the way I appreciate your trip report as well as everyone who posts pics and reports. Again I apologize for being late to the forum and hopefully to end on something good I posted some pics on Flickr. http://www.flickr.com/photos/38729701@N04/sets/72157618998656569/