I'm confused about this religous message...

[dmuja]

I take the gist of your statements to be that I paint all "religion" with too broad a brush. Its hard not too when you look at who and what is most broadly aknowledged to be representitive of "religion" around the world. The loud mouthed fundies and evangels have it by a long shot. For example, other than Quakers and their like, if there are any compassionate and tolerant Christian sects (of any significance) you sure don't here of Presidents taking counsel among them ala Billy Graham style. And while the nicey nice mystics and meditators are much more bearable than the firebrands who get all the attention, they are certainly pretty rare (statistically insignificant) and porbly waist too much time on introspection and philosophy.

 

As to the topic at hand, Olympia should have never allowed a representative display of litto Baby Jesus in a government building. Plastic Litto Baby Jesus's (as cute as he may be that litto rascal) are an "in your face" kind of thing and that = government promotion of religion. 'Coarse, once you do that you better consider it an open forum and allow ALL points of view. That's pretty much what the courts have said so it's on. Eventually, when something like the Enumclaw Church of Animal Husbandry decides to put up a display they will shut the whole thing down..lesson learned

[Bug]

While there was indeed a part that was that "gist", there were also specifics as to what truely drives a spiritual person and the validity of religion in the proper context. As an added bonus, there were references to the value of "mythology" as it functioned throughout history as the library for all collective knowledge and wisdom of the respective society.

The second part of your last post seems driven by anger and an unwillingness to accept democratic principles. Christianity is still the religion of the majority. If you feel it is "in your face" to have these religious displays in a government building then I would submit that you are a scientific fundamentalist. The religious displays are not intended to be denouncements of other peoples beliefs as the sign in question was. They were displays of beliefs that should be allowed as long as they do not deny the rights of others. I would invite you and the Enumclaw Church of Animal Husbandry to put up your display and see how it plays out in this democratic society.

That would be entertaining. Which seems to be the purpose of news these days. But that is thread drift......

[pc313]

My sister got married in the Catholic church in 1972 and her frist husband was a woman beater,so after the third black eye in 2 years she got a devorce,so after 3 years she found the right guy who was Catholic and wanted a church wedding,but the church refused to grant her devorce and said no!

 

So her and her husband to be started their own Church with 3 friends from work and my sister and a woman in their church got their ministry licenses and the other woman married them to the shock of both catholic families,and when my other sister got married my Ministry sister preformed the service,it was my idea and my mom was pissed!

 

My sister became the head of the Church of Moutain Hiking and Four Wheel Drivers for God!

 

For years they would go on Church retreats Hiking,4x4 trips,hawaii,and Disneyland and would write it off as a tax deduction,Tee shirts,food,gas,hotels,airfare,and entertainment,witch got them envited to the IRS 5 out of 8 years they did it and won!

But got out of it when the tax system code changed and were tired of being audited. They use to joke about being on the "IRS autmatic audit list"

But anyone can start a Church, maybe THE CHURCH OF CC.COM.?

[Bug]

I knew a guy named Bruce Anderson who got tired of being called to see if he was "that" Bruce Anderson.

He got a certification on the internet and entered his name in the phone book as Rev Bruce Anderson. He also performed the wedding ceremony for his sister. She now calls him "the polyp on the asshole of the universe."

He just reminds her that she can get a divorce on the internet.

[tvashtarkatena]

While there was indeed a part that was that "gist", there were also specifics as to what truely drives a spiritual person and the validity of religion in the proper context. As an added bonus, there were references to the value of "mythology" as it functioned throughout history as the library for all collective knowledge and wisdom of the respective society.

The second part of your last post seems driven by anger and an unwillingness to accept democratic principles. Christianity is still the religion of the majority. If you feel it is "in your face" to have these religious displays in a government building then I would submit that you are a scientific fundamentalist. The religious displays are not intended to be denouncements of other peoples beliefs as the sign in question was. They were displays of beliefs that should be allowed as long as they do not deny the rights of others. I would invite you and the Enumclaw Church of Animal Husbandry to put up your display and see how it plays out in this democratic society.

That would be entertaining. Which seems to be the purpose of news these days. But that is thread drift......

 

Scientific fundamentalist? That's a looooonnnnggg stretch. How about a simple respect for the rule of law and equality of all religions in this country?

 

Your statement reveals a bit of a misunderstanding of 'democracy', which does not include embracing the tyranny of the majority, as you suggest it should. That's where the Constitution comes in, to protect a democracy from just that.

 

The Constitution prohibits making any "law respecting an establishment of religion"...."or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". This could be executed in two ways: allowing all religious displays in government buildings such as the capitol, or allowing none at all. If the Church of Enumclaw were to have a display at the capitol, for example, there would be nothing the populace could legally do about it, 'democratically' or otherwise.

 

Should the issue ever reach the Supreme Court, the ruling would likely be to disallow any religious displays in government buildings, given the ruling against displaying The Ten Commandments in a courthouse a couple of years or so ago. IMO, this is probably the best approach towards equally respecting all religions, regardless of how generally acceptable they may be to however large a slice of the population.

 

The Constitution doesn't give one shit about how much or little of a majority of the U.S. population believes in any one creed. To state that such a statistic somehow lends some kind of legal legitimacy to one religious group over another reveals a basic misunderstanding not only of our laws, but also of one of our core American values.

Edited December 8, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[pc313]

While there was indeed a part that was that "gist", there were also specifics as to what truely drives a spiritual person and the validity of religion in the proper context. As an added bonus, there were references to the value of "mythology" as it functioned throughout history as the library for all collective knowledge and wisdom of the respective society.

The second part of your last post seems driven by anger and an unwillingness to accept democratic principles. Christianity is still the religion of the majority. If you feel it is "in your face" to have these religious displays in a government building then I would submit that you are a scientific fundamentalist. The religious displays are not intended to be denouncements of other peoples beliefs as the sign in question was. They were displays of beliefs that should be allowed as long as they do not deny the rights of others. I would invite you and the Enumclaw Church of Animal Husbandry to put up your display and see how it plays out in this democratic society.

That would be entertaining. Which seems to be the purpose of news these days. But that is thread drift......

 

My brother lives in Enumclaw and his wife and kids go to churh every sunday,she also is a sunday school teacher,he stays home because he is Catholic and she is Lutheran!

 

He don't go to church anyway and stays home to watch NASCAR.

[tvashtarkatena]

 

For me, Church is where Christians meet with other Christians to plan their service to the community and share their faith with each other. There is a lot of persecution, understandably, and we need to help each other.

 

Give me a fucking break. Exactly how, in any real way, are Christians in this country 'being persecuted'? Are you being denied the right to marry? Forced to have children you don't want to bear? Being denied jobs? Housing? Loans? The ability to worship as freely as you wish?

 

Or is reading criticism on a forum full of the non-religious you willingly and actively participate in your definition of 'persecution'? Some of us would simply call it that self flagellation, which, I realize, has some religious history in itself.

 

We hear this A LOT from the evangelicals, how persecuted they are. In the very next sentence they claim, as you have just now, that Christians are the majority in this country. Um...pretty hard to persecute a majority, unless you're South Africa or something.

 

This schtick is nothing more than an old and tired propoganda ploy to divide US from THEM in an effort to more efficiently fleece the flock and justify the persecution Christians actively seek against other groups, such as gays, whom they feel violate the beliefs of their cult.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[dmuja]

What is a "spiritual person" anyway? How are they contrasted with the rest of us?

 

The second part of your last post seems driven by anger and an unwillingness to accept democratic principles. Christianity is still the religion of the majority. If you feel it is "in your face" to have these religious displays in a government building then I would submit that you are a scientific fundamentalist.

 

Dude, how could you see anger in that post? (my god I said baby Jebus was cute!)

 

Doesn't matter which religion is the majority its the minorities that need protecting from mob rule - Im sure youve heard that.

 

And yes, science rules, even the Dalai Lama said his "Dharma" (Buddhist teachings) must defer to science because it is empirically based *and not anecdotally based (*my words).

 

Myth is cool though, but we now have art, pyschology and such (although some scientists still reject psy as just another "religion") so Im not sure that religion serves much of a purpose beyond dividing people into ins and outs. In fact Im fairly certain it doesn't.

 

But as I said some religions are better than others. For a non-theistic "religion" for instance Zen Buddhism is fairly cool but has a tendency to become rather cult like at times itself.

 

But if its altered states and deep introspection your after nothing beats quantum Physics imo - maybe some vitamin A once and a while too

[tvashtarkatena]

People who claim to be 'highly spiritual', (translation: way more spiritual and enlightened than your sorry ass), are simply participated in the age old human sport of self-adornment. If you don't walk the 'spiritual person's' path in the way that the 'spiritual person' expects, then you'd best go back to your trailer park and finish off those foaties.

 

The Inappropriate Yoga Guy could demonstrate this point much better than I can state it.

[dmuja]

Inappropriate Yoga..hmmm...State capitol..hmmm?

[Bug]

Reread and try again. You are way off of what I said.

In fact, you seem to be saying the same thing except that you bristle at the thought of being compared to religious fundamentalists who try to force their beleifs on you.

 

[Bug]

 

For me, Church is where Christians meet with other Christians to plan their service to the community and share their faith with each other. There is a lot of persecution, understandably, and we need to help each other.

 

Give me a fucking break. Exactly how, in any real way, are Christians in this country 'being persecuted'? Are you being denied the right to marry? Forced to have children you don't want to bear? Being denied jobs? Housing? Loans? The ability to worship as freely as you wish?

 

Or is reading criticism on a forum full of the non-religious you willingly and actively participate in your definition of 'persecution'? Some of us would simply call it that self flagellation, which, I realize, has some religious history in itself.

 

We hear this A LOT from the evangelicals, how persecuted they are. In the very next sentence they claim, as you have just now, that Christians are the majority in this country. Um...pretty hard to persecute a majority, unless you're South Africa or something.

 

This schtick is nothing more than an old and tired propoganda ploy to divide US from THEM in an effort to more efficiently fleece the flock and justify the persecution Christians actively seek against other groups, such as gays, whom they feel violate the beliefs of their cult.

 

Once again, you are posting your twisted view of religion as though you are some kind of expert. You only flagellate yourself posting such arrogant ignorance. You see, the Christians I hang out with would not go along with the accusations you insinuate in your post. Never the less, we are seen by the majority as being one of them because we are Christians. My father is an atheist and smokes cigars so that means you smoke cigars right? You are not reading anything that I post. You are just flaming irrationally.

[Bug]

What is a "spiritual person" anyway? How are they contrasted with the rest of us?

 

The second part of your last post seems driven by anger and an unwillingness to accept democratic principles. Christianity is still the religion of the majority. If you feel it is "in your face" to have these religious displays in a government building then I would submit that you are a scientific fundamentalist.

 

Dude, how could you see anger in that post? (my god I said baby Jebus was cute!)

 

Doesn't matter which religion is the majority its the minorities that need protecting from mob rule - Im sure youve heard that.

 

And yes, science rules, even the Dalai Lama said his "Dharma" (Buddhist teachings) must defer to science because it is empirically based *and not anecdotally based (*my words).

 

Myth is cool though, but we now have art, pyschology and such (although some scientists still reject psy as just another "religion") so Im not sure that religion serves much of a purpose beyond dividing people into ins and outs. In fact Im fairly certain it doesn't.

 

But as I said some religions are better than others. For a non-theistic "religion" for instance Zen Buddhism is fairly cool but has a tendency to become rather cult like at times itself.

 

But if its altered states and deep introspection your after nothing beats quantum Physics imo - maybe some vitamin A once and a while too

Read the Tao of Physics or the Dhali Lahmma's last book. I forget the title but it is an up-to-date version of the Tao of physics except that it approaches the relationship between physics and spirituality from the spiritual side while the Tao of Physics approaches it from the side of physics. Both are pretty non-denominational as far as spirituality goes.

As for acid. I don't reccommend it because I have seen people have a really hard time on it. But for me, it opened my eyes to possibilities beyond what science can currently explain. Science will get there eventually. Meanwhile, I want to keep those experiences alive and well. I have been doing so without drugs for a long time now. Tai Chi, Chi Gung, and now my first foray into Vedic disciplines, Isha Yoga. All are very focused on the relationship between physics and spirit.

Master Chuan was sent here in the early nineties to show the UW Physics department some of the things he could do that physics had no way to explain (he was a Phd in physics). He rose steam off the bay by the stadium. He focused it on one spot and dissipated it. He had two strong football players try to push him over. They could not budge this small old man one inch.

There is so much that is not known and is currently unknowable through pure science.

Why do so many of you resist so vehemently?

It seems almost like fear. Or like the way Fairweather and KKKK still hold to modern republican principles.

Why does science have to be involved for you to enjoy it?

Science is just one path amoung many.

[tvashtarkatena]

This, overall, is a very uninformed discussion.

It serves no purpose other than to expose the values of your families of origin in a broad social-anthropological way.

But you all seem so happy for once.

Carry on.

 

OK, Yoga Guy. You're the Spiritual Boss.

 

PS I grew up in Northern California, so I can smell your tired Vedic bullshit from space.

[Peter_Puget]

I was once a sceptic like Tvash. But then I was walking by a building on Capital Hill and saw this!

 

 

Skill of Kyong Gong Sul Bope

One of the many personal achievements Grandmaster "Iron" Kim has reached is the Kyong Gong Sul Bope (flying side kick). Pictured above is Grandmaster jumping from the top of a building. A corner of the roof is visible in the lower right corner of the picture.In 1970, Grandmaster "Iron" Kim demonstrated Kyong Gong Sul Bope by jumping from the equivalent of an 11-story building. In 1972 Grandmaster "Iron" Kim again demonstrated the Kyong Gong Sul Bope movement by jumping from the equivalent of an 8-story building, landing without injury on a sloped surface below.

 

Performing the Kyong Gong Sul Bope movement is a phenomenal feat, but more important is the tremendous internal power and strength that an individual must possess in order to perform Kyong Gong Sul Bope. Our research has shown that only a small number of people have reached a similar level of achievement. Grandmaster "Iron" Kim has maintained the miraculous mental and physical strength needed to execute this movement. Even at an older age, we have no doubt that Grandmaster "Iron" Kim is still capable of precisely demonstrating the Kyong Gong Sul Bope form. He is a living example of the benefits of achieving phenomenal Moo Doe strength. Grandmaster "Iron" Kim has taught some instructors, with the position of National Instructor and higher, the beginning levels of Kyong Gong Sul Bope. They are now capable of jumping and landing from a 2 or 3 story building without injury.

 

 

Such feats simply defy physics! And here you have proof!

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Note the fog mysteriously lifting beneath him....

[tvashtarkatena]

I can clear a forum using only the power of my mind.

[Skeezix]

The Amazing Kweskin.

[pc313]

I think the record is 3800ft. free fall and walked away in Oregon in 86,the guys parachute didn't deploy and he broke his nose on his harness when hit the ground on his feet, talk about your Kyong Gong Sol Bope!

[Bug]

See?

You are fundamentalists.

It is not in the science book, therefor it cannot be.

Cheers!

[dmuja]

I was once a sceptic like Tvash. But then I was walking by a building on Capital Hill and saw this!

 

 

Skill of Kyong Gong Sul Bope

One of the many personal achievements Grandmaster "Iron" Kim has reached is the Kyong Gong Sul Bope (flying side kick). Pictured above is Grandmaster jumping from the top of a building. A corner of the roof is visible in the lower right corner of the picture.In 1970, Grandmaster "Iron" Kim demonstrated Kyong Gong Sul Bope by jumping from the equivalent of an 11-story building. In 1972 Grandmaster "Iron" Kim again demonstrated the Kyong Gong Sul Bope movement by jumping from the equivalent of an 8-story building, landing without injury on a sloped surface below.

 

Performing the Kyong Gong Sul Bope movement is a phenomenal feat, but more important is the tremendous internal power and strength that an individual must possess in order to perform Kyong Gong Sul Bope. Our research has shown that only a small number of people have reached a similar level of achievement. Grandmaster "Iron" Kim has maintained the miraculous mental and physical strength needed to execute this movement. Even at an older age, we have no doubt that Grandmaster "Iron" Kim is still capable of precisely demonstrating the Kyong Gong Sul Bope form. He is a living example of the benefits of achieving phenomenal Moo Doe strength. Grandmaster "Iron" Kim has taught some instructors, with the position of National Instructor and higher, the beginning levels of Kyong Gong Sul Bope. They are now capable of jumping and landing from a 2 or 3 story building without injury.

 

 

Such feats simply defy physics! And here you have proof!

 

 

Bullshitsu..

 

Grandmaster "Iron" Kim's school has changed marketing ploys more times than he changes his undies. And that photo is like 30 years old and has been "shopped" over numerous backgrounds.

 

Koreans are good fighters because they are generally fucking nuts.

 

Years ago I sparred with a Korean "master" who was about a foot shorter than me. Little fuck could hit HARD! But because I could take a HARD! punch he fell to my "superior" mass - his grappling technique was pretty lame as well.

 

Once again physics beats mysticism.

[Bug]

This, overall, is a very uninformed discussion.

It serves no purpose other than to expose the values of your families of origin in a broad social-anthropological way.

But you all seem so happy for once.

Carry on.

 

OK, Yoga Guy. You're the Spiritual Boss.

 

PS I grew up in Northern California, so I can smell your tired Vedic bullshit from space.

You have such a narrow little perspective.

Spray is a good place for you to spread your "intellectual" wings.

You clearly have not read much on the broader study of religion or socio-cultural anthropology.

Going to a Catholic school or living in Northern California is more like a handicap than an education on religion or spirituality. They are two extremes and both very sad examples of practice gone awry.

But I fear I have hurt your feelings by spraying with the same vigor as you.

Seems like I just had this happen with someone else on this board.

Oh yeah! You remind me of KKKK.

Perhaps he will climb with you now that you can see what you have in common.

 

[pc313]

I think the record is 3800ft. free fall and walked away in Oregon in 86,the guys parachute didn't deploy and he broke his nose on his harness when hit the ground on his feet, talk about your Kyong Gong Sol Bope!

 

12-13-2007 Micheal Homes of New Zealand jumped 14,000 feet with helmet cam and the parachute fucked up,so he cuts it free and pulls his back up and nothing,knowing he's a dead man starts fucking saying his goodbyes and lands in black berrie bushes but didn't walk away!

Micheal said he will jump again when he heals,cant find the video but would like to hear what he said!

Edited December 8, 2008 by pc313

[tvashtarkatena]

I seem to recall that a Russian fighter pilot held the record for surviving a fall; 30,000+ feet or something, onto steep powder snow. Too lazy to Google it.

[pc313]

I seem to recall that a Russian fighter pilot held the record for surviving a fall; 30,000+ feet or something, onto steep powder snow. Too lazy to Google it.

 

That could be but the guy who fell in Eugene Oregon missed hitting airport runway by 20 feet and landed feet frist in the grass,people on the ground said he bounced 15feet up after hitting,got up and walked to office with his bloody nose!

 

After going to the Hospital for exrays he was told he had shattered his nose and was releast."THE MAN WHO FELL TO EARTH" I think it was 86!

 

I'll check out the Russian!