Train in vain?

[DPS]

I am currently recovering from some overuse injuries and have been experimenting with different forms of exercise, and I have a few comments/questions.

#1. Regarding doing stair master while wearing a weighted pack: I don't understand the point of wearing a pack while using a stair machine as the whole purpose of stair machines is to push DOWN on a pair of pedals. Wouldn't increasing one's weight logically make it easier to push down on the pedals, making for an EASIER workout, or am I missing something?

#2a. Hiking uphill with a weighted pack: My prefered method of aerobic/carido training is trail running. I have joined the masses of people hiking up Mt. Si with a pack loaded with rocks, water bottles etc. While this seems to give a decent strength workout, it doesn't seem to offer nearly the same aerobic benefits as trail running. I just can't seem to get my body moving fast enough to raise my heart rate without hurting something.

#2b. Hiking with weighted pack, part 2: When I am healthy enough to train by trail running, I am a much faster climber. I think moving the body quickly over trails improves balance, speed and coordination, skills vital to alpine climbing.I also think that carring big packs up hills really trains the body to move slowly, definately not what an alpinist wants.

Anybody care to comment?

 

[Courtenay]

Hi there Daniel,

regarding 1) actually, what I'd hope people would understand is that they'd need to change the weight they plug in on the stairmaster, or yes indeedy, it will be quite a different workout. I still prefer to have clients go outside and do hills or stairs, but that's not always an option in inclement weather.

regarding 2a) if your body can handle trail running, by all means go for it. It's a good way to train, but not everyone has the ankles/knees/hips for it as a first choice. You might want to include it as one of several training methods and cycle through them (to prevent overuse.)

What are your overuse injuries you're currently recovering from?

regarding 2b) I suggest people use whatever weight they're going to be using most often in the mountains. If you go light and fast, then use that weight and go light and fast. If you are a slogger who likes to carry the kitchen sink with you for comfort, then to get the body and muscles used to carrying it, the best way is to ... carry the heavy weight.

Good points!

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Courtenay Schurman, CSCS

[DPS]

Thanks for your clarification. I should have guessed that people would have to increase the resistance of the stair machine to counteract the increased weight, but nobody has ever mentioned it.

I am recovering from achilles tendonitis. I have included a stretching program in addition to weight training, climbing, stair master and hiking, and have seen an improvment. (Not running has helped as well)

[SherpaJim]

quote:

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Originally posted by danielpatricksmith:

Thanks for your clarification. I should have guessed that people would have to increase the resistance of the stair machine to counteract the increased weight, but nobody has ever mentioned it.

I am recovering from achilles tendonitis. I have included a stretching program in addition to weight training, climbing, stair master and hiking, and have seen an improvment. (Not running has helped as well)

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Dan:

I've tried trail running and agree that it strengthens a lot of the stabilization muscles that normally wouldn't get a workout from a stepper machine. It also helps with aerobic conditioning. Unfortunately, my old hip objects to the percussion of trail running, so I can't do it often or long enough to get a training effect.

I've adapted my training program to work around old injuries. I've also found that the Precor eliptical cross trainier with variable grade and resistance works well and has minimal adverse effect on my joints. I also will wear my climbing boots once in a while to force me to use the same muscles that I use when climbing or hiking (more quads and gluets with the boots and less calf). I vary the weight and even the pack that I wear to match what I wear on an ascent.

One thing I've seen at the gym is that many people "cheat" and hold the handrails while working out. I find I get best results and a much harder workout by not using hands and keeping in balance on each step. I also vary the steps per minute to simulate fast or "slog" ascents, ranging from 80-120 steps per minute.

Since I can't trail run, I jog on a treadmill indoors and vary the incline to do high output pushes ever so often. So far, no injuries and it provides the aerobic part of my workout.

- Jim

[none_dup1]

Here's a question:

What about using small (2.5 lb. each) strap on ankle weights on each leg on the kind of stair machine that has real stairs that rotate around (The Gauntlet or Step Mill are two brands)? My theory is that this helps the muscles that lift the leg and replicates wearing a heavy-duty leather or plastic boot on steeper terrain. I would run real stairs if there were any in our neighborhood, but there aren't, so have used this technique.

Is this a bogus way to train? Several trainers at our club have suggested it strains the knees. I used it quite aggressively prior to three Rainier trips over the last two years, as did my wife, and we felt this really helped.

Thanks for any input,

John Sharp

[Peter_Baer]

I'm looking for something that will simulate a real pack yet is compact enough that I can wear it to the gym without knocking people about.

What about weight vests? I would guess that they don't work out the back and butt muscles the same way but they sure are a lot less bulky.

They run about $90 so I'm also thinking about constructing a workout pack by just stripping an old pack and hanging weights on it.

 

[SherpaJim]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peter Baer:

I'm looking for something that will simulate a real pack yet is compact enough that I can wear it to the gym without knocking people about.

What about weight vests? I would guess that they don't work out the back and butt muscles the same way but they sure are a lot less bulky.

They run about $90 so I'm also thinking about constructing a workout pack by just stripping an old pack and hanging weights on it.

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Peter:

Why not just wear a small pack? I usually use a 2000 cu inch technical day pack that I've reinforced a bit. I've loaded it with up to two 25 lb. weight plates so it weighs about 52 lbs. I do my stair, incline treadmill, and elliptical cross trainer work with it and it's pretty compact. I've even had a hydration system in it, oh, and my walkman too. It does put a greater strain on the shoulders, much more than a full size pack, so periodically, I wear my regular pack and load it up.

- Jim

[Peter_Baer]

quote:

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Originally posted by SherpaJim:

It does put a greater strain on the shoulders, much more than a full size pack, so periodically, I wear my regular pack and load it up.

- Jim

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Yeah, my concern is that a small-but-heavy pack (or a vest) won't work out the lower core muscles like a real 45lb 5000 cu pack, where most of the weight is on the hips, would. But maybe it's not that big a deal...

[Courtenay]

MrGoodTime,

I'd say "go for it" with small ankle weights to simulate heavier plastic boots, but any MORE weight than 2.5-3# won't necessarily provide you with "functional" leg strength. Any additional weight should be added to a hip belt or backpack to train the appropriate hip, core, and leg muscles to be stronger. As for "hurting your knees", that's a rather common refrain from many gym trainers who tend to work with the general population rather than sports-specific athletes.

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Courtenay Schurman, CSCS

[Courtenay]

Hi Peter, Sherpa Jim --

Regarding your questions about a compact pack, I definitely recommend you train with something that will strengthen hip, core and leg muscles appropriately without straining upper cervical and thoracic spine -- using a smaller pack with dense weight (2x25#) puts undue stress on the upper back and neck and may result in your quitting the workout earlier than you normally would.

Here's a suggestion: why not try leaving the bulk of your pack training outside on real hills (both so the bulk won't get in other people's way, and so you appropriately strengthen ankles, calves, hips and legs that don't necessarily get the same work on a treadmill, stair master or elliptical) 1-2 times a week and go for higher intensity without pack (or medium intensity with a lighter, more compact pack) when in the gym? This allows more variety in your workouts without running the risk of overtraining.

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Courtenay Schurman, CSCS

[JIMI]

 

It seems courtenay has the most common sense here.

When it comes to the gym, why try to make it into the outdoor's. You should focus on making your body and heart stronger while in the gym. Use your pack for what it was intended, and GET OUTSIDE! Don't be afraid of a little rain, snow, mud, or whatever. Mountain climbers are suppose to be HARD!

As far as recovering from injuries. The gym is the best was to make your body strong again. You can control the amount of intensity (sp?) and duration. Without finding yourself miles away from your car or facing an obsticle (sp?) to great. I spent all of f---ing 1999 in a cast for one reason or another. I've spent all of 2000 geting ready for 2001 climbing season. My moto is "there's only one way back, THE HARD WAY!" Meaning you have to you have to get after it.

Just my two cents. Hope to see you at the summit.

JIMI

[JIMI]

I forgot to mention that running stairs and trail running are the best ways to take your game to another level. If you continue to train hard enough for your body to handle the pounding. That's the trick here, we're all getting older and our bodies have to be tough to handle the demands of climbing. That's why when you walk into work after a big climb hardly able to walk, and your coworkers ask "why do you put yourself through all that?" you can reply proudly "Because can!"

JIMI