Behold: National Health Care

[Tokogirl]

FW - Did you read my previous post??

Seems like there are some issues, big ones, with our current healthcare system. It isn't any easy fix but seems like something needs to happen to improve this situation.

[mattp]

Try google. Search: Veterans Administration Healthcare Quality.

 

You get a lot of government stuff, but you also get this:

 

American Journal of Medical Quality

We found that in-hospital mortality in 1 VA hospital and a nationwide sample of private-sector hospitals were similar, after adjusting for severity of illness. Although not directly generalizable to other VA hospitals, our findings nonetheless suggest that the quality of VA and private-sector care may be similar with respect to one important and widely used measure.

 

American Journal of Managed Care

Once disparaged as a bureaucracy providing mediocre care, the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) is recognized for leadership in clinical informatics and performance improvement, cares for more patients with proportionally fewer resources, and sets national benchmarks in patient satisfaction and for 18 indicators of quality in disease prevention and treatment.

 

Annalys of Internal Medicine

Diabetes processes of care and 2 of 3 intermediate outcomes were better for patients in the VA system than for patients in commercial managed care. However, both VA and commercial managed care had room for improvement, especially for blood pressure control.

 

I realize you don't check any of my links, but I already posted a link with similar information.

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

FW - Did you read my previous post??

Seems like there are some issues, big ones, with our current healthcare system. It isn't any easy fix but seems like something needs to happen to improve this situation.

 

There will always be "issues" with any system or institution created and run by human beings. Nothing is perfect. So that's not a legitimate argument.

 

 

[Fairweather]

FW - Did you read my previous post??

Seems like there are some issues, big ones, with our current healthcare system. It isn't any easy fix but seems like something needs to happen to improve this situation.

 

I agree. But not anything resembling or any step toward the single payer, government monopolized system some of the socialists here dream of.

[mattp]

There will always be "issues" with any system or institution created and run by human beings. Nothing is perfect. So that's not a legitimate argument.

 

Refusing to discuss the issues is not a legitimate argument.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

There will always be "issues" with any system or institution created and run by human beings. Nothing is perfect. So that's not a legitimate argument.

 

Refusing to discuss the issues is not a legitimate argument.

 

The "liberal" argument is that somethings wrong, wring our hands, moan collectively, whine about the rich, and "big" corporations, then demand a state-imposed "solution". Not much to discuss there other than give a big middle finger to socialism.

 

[Fairweather]

Google-anecdote is not real discussion, Matt.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Google-anecdote is not real discussion, Matt.

 

How about citing books one has never read?

[Fairweather]

That too.

[Tokogirl]

FW - Did you read my previous post??

Seems like there are some issues, big ones, with our current healthcare system. It isn't any easy fix but seems like something needs to happen to improve this situation.

 

There will always be "issues" with any system or institution created and run by human beings. Nothing is perfect. So that's not a legitimate argument.

 

 

5K,

Yea, we are only human and there will always be something but....

Wouldn't you agree that one of the big issues is how much we as a nation pay for health care and how much we are getting from those $$ we spend.

I must confess if our health care system would put more emphasis on healthly lifestyles, health maintenance, etc. that would go far in reducing the overall cost of healthcare.

[Fairweather]

My daughter graduated from Western Washington University yesterday. Today she tore the meniscus in her right knee. Unfortunately, her health insurance coverage ended the day she completed her studies. We'll negotiate cash for services with her orthopedic doc and/or make payment arrangements.

[mattp]

The "liberal" argument is that somethings wrong, wring our hands, moan collectively, whine about the rich, and "big" corporations, then demand a state-imposed "solution". Not much to discuss there other than give a big middle finger to socialism.

 

Yeah. We know all about "transfer payments." You have declined to address any of the substance of Tokogirl's post, or really much of anything else, except your disdain for socialism.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Wouldn't you agree that one of the big issues is how much we as a nation pay for health care and how much we are getting from those $$ we spend.

 

We are getting the best health care in the world. The best care is expensive - no surprises there.

 

There are other things driving up costs - things the left deny repeatedly as factors: costs of malpractice insurance and litigation, costs for expensive procedures to prevent the latter, costs of prolong the lives of people in poor health, and the costs of an unhealthy population. They also refuse to accept the fact that many of the uninsured are uninsured by choice - they'd just rather spend their money on something else.

 

My insurance premiums are high. But I'll be damned if I let the government step in and fuck them up even worse. They will. Shittier care for more money.

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The "liberal" argument is that somethings wrong, wring our hands, moan collectively, whine about the rich, and "big" corporations, then demand a state-imposed "solution". Not much to discuss there other than give a big middle finger to socialism.

 

Yeah. We know all about "transfer payments." You have declined to address any of the substance of Tokogirl's post, or really much of anything else, except your disdain for socialism.

 

Pay your own way, Matt. It's clear that this is the heart of your discontent with the current system. You want others to pay for you in some big "collective" pool of cash.

 

 

[mattp]

Google-anecdote is not real discussion, Matt.

 

So spewing unfounded assertions with no apparent basis in fact and refusing to even provide any reference or source when questioned is real discussion?

 

Feel free to post any "real discussion" about how government healthcare in America today is inherently and systemically worse than private. Explain where you got the idea that all proposals for healthcare reform that would draw the support of Democrats or someone like myself would have all healthcare delivered in government run facilities and provided by government employees. Show us where you got the idea that people who go bankrupt over medical expenses actually deserved it because they "chose" not to insure themselves.

[Fairweather]

Google-anecdote is not real discussion, Matt.

 

So spewing unfounded assertions with no apparent basis in fact and refusing to even provide any reference or source when questioned is real discussion?

 

Feel free to post any "real discussion" about how government healthcare in America today is inherently and systemically worse than private. Explain where you got the idea that all proposals for healthcare reform that would draw the support of Democrats or someone like myself would have all healthcare delivered in government run facilities and provided by government employees.

 

Refer to your exchange with JayB.

[mattp]

Show me where JayB answered these questions for you.

[Tokogirl]

Wouldn't you agree that one of the big issues is how much we as a nation pay for health care and how much we are getting from those $$ we spend.

 

We are getting the best health care in the world. The best care is expensive - no surprises there.

 

There are other things driving up costs - things the left deny repeatedly as factors: costs of malpractice insurance and litigation, costs for expensive procedures to prevent the latter, costs of prolong the lives of people in poor health, and the costs of an unhealthy population. They also refuse to accept the fact that many of the uninsured are uninsured by choice - they'd just rather spend their money on something else.

 

My insurance premiums are high. But I'll be damned if I let the government step in and fuck them up even worse. They will. Shittier care for more money.

 

 

You have a few valid points(though I don't think it is just the left)

Our healthcare is a bit more expensive - true - but I wouldn't necessarily agree it is the best, but one of the best.

Cost of malpractice insurance is high, especially for some specialties in WA state.

Because of malpractice issues there are a number of surgerys that are done in other countries on a regular basis that are deemed experimental by most insurance companies in the US.

As mentioned previously if more emphasis was put on overall health...this topic is a huge issue and costs you and I many more $$ than we realize!

[mattp]

Pay your own way, Matt. It's clear that this is the heart of your discontent with the current system. You want others to pay for you in some big "collective" pool of cash.

 

Nope. I pay my taxes without complaining about it and I pay for my own healthcare insurance plus deductibles, co-pays and uncovered services. I pay enough for myself AND a few others, in fact.

[Tokogirl]

My daughter graduated from Western Washington University yesterday. Today she tore the meniscus in her right knee. Unfortunately, her health insurance coverage ended the day she completed her studies. We'll negotiate cash for services with her orthopedic doc and/or make payment arrangements.

FW,

Sorry to hear that!

She may qualify for other assistance and most facilities have someone in the patient service department who can assist with that.

[Fairweather]

 

Your own words:

 

I don't think I ever argued that corporations are infringing upon my rights and freedoms. If I did, I misspoke. I DID say that I would trust a government agency with my health records before I would trust private enterprise, and that I would greater trust ANY enterprise to look out for my long term health interests if I was confident that I could never lose my insurance. That is a different matter, no?

 

I'm not quite clear as to your "single payor" question either. I don't know what the options are, or how any of the proposals might actually work but yes, I think you are trying to get me to acknowledge that I believe we should have a system where we continue to subsidize healthcare for sicker and poorer people more than we do for healthier and wealthier people. I believe this is going to have to require some restrictions on the latter's option to "opt out" without paying into the system ...

 

As to whether I "want" government to control distribution and application of that funding for healthcare that is part of any national system? I'm generally suspicious of "public-private partnerships," because they appear to me to mean the government/taxpayer ends up subsidizing private businesses. In a system with the vouchers or tax credits that you suggest, the healthier will be offered and will in their own interest purchase cheaper coverage from private companies whereas the sicker will only be able to get much more expensive insurance if any, unless the government actually provides it at some fixed price. The most profitable part of the market will tend to become private, while the less profitable public...

 

 

[mattp]

Question about the "medical malpractice crisis." How does this relate to a discussion of whether universal healthcare is a good idea, or whether broader coverage of any kind and combination of public and private sector services would be worth pursuing?

[mattp]

Those are my words, Fairweather. Now: how do they answer any of the questions we are discussing here on THIS PAGE? Yes, I tend to think that our best answer lies in MORE GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT. I don't know how it would could or should work. But where have you shown that government run healthcare is inherently worse? Where have I said that the only changes I would accept would be government run facilities only? Where DO you get your information that you refuse to support?

[Fairweather]

 

 

...but yes, I think you are trying to get me to acknowledge that I believe we should have a system where we continue to subsidize healthcare for sicker and poorer people more than we do for healthier and wealthier people. I believe this is going to have to require some restrictions on the latter's option to "opt out" without paying into the system ...

 

As to whether I "want" government to control distribution and application of that funding for healthcare that is part of any national system? I'm generally suspicious of "public-private partnerships," ...

 

[Fairweather]

Those are my words, Fairweather. Now: how do they answer any of the questions we are discussing here on THIS PAGE?

 

They confirm that you are trying to claim you are not for something that, in fact, you are. Why do you play these games?