The True Patriot

[ClimbingPanther]

now here's a true , er patriot

[sexual_chocolate]

I'd like to see us all agree on what is a fair rate, and not exceed it - force the government to actually budget, which involves tough decisions and cuts.

 

In times of prosperity it'd be nice to see accumulation of some surplus for use in harder times. yeah, like that ever happens.

 

well that actually happened, if i'm correct: clinton's "pay as you go". we had a surplus at the end of his term, and were well on our way to paying off our previous debts.

 

and the government, even now, does "budget"; it's just that they rescinded "pay as you go", slicing away everything they disagree with, and borrowing for the things they want (deficit spending might be part of their (short-sighted) strategy to bankrupt the federal government, as they have stated in policy papers).

[Gary_Yngve]

Well, yes, if you cut marginal rates by 1%, then those who make 10 times as much, can get 10 times the "cut".

 

You're clouding the issue. The tax reforms of 2001 and 2003 were far more complicated. (I agree on the reforms regarding retirement accounts.) For example, there were cuts on capital gains taxes and changes on how investments and depreciation is handled. These changes benefited the rich far more than just linearly proportional to their income.

 

And what do you think of the estate tax?

 

Do you think it would be fair for Paris Hilton to inherit hundreds of millions tax-free and basically be a deadbeat?

 

What's the difference between a homeless person and Paris Hilton in terms of contribution to this country?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

You're clouding the issue. The tax reforms of 2001 and 2003 were far more complicated. (I agree on the reforms regarding retirement accounts.) For example, there were cuts on capital gains taxes and changes on how investments and depreciation is handled. These changes benefited the rich far more than just linearly proportional to their income.

 

Again, let's come to an agreement on what is "fair", even a "fair range" and then stick within that range. What I perceive from a left is a constant desire to increase taxes, grow government and spend more. Yes, Bush did the latter two, but I don't look to the left for the opposite.

 

And what do you think of the estate tax?

 

We've covered this before. I think the estate tax as double (or triple) taxation and, as such, completely unfair.

 

The person who built up the estate (or couple) paid income, capital gains and real estate taxes their whole life. It should not be taxed again upon that person's death.

[rbw1966]

We've covered this before. I think the estate tax as double (or triple) taxation and, as such, completely unfair.

 

The person who built up the estate (or couple) paid income, capital gains and real estate taxes their whole life. It should not be taxed again upon that person's death.

 

My income is taxed. When I pass my income on to, say, my mechanic he then has to pay income tax on it too. When an estate passes from one person to another its income to the recipient.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

We've covered this before. I think the estate tax as double (or triple) taxation and, as such, completely unfair.

 

The person who built up the estate (or couple) paid income, capital gains and real estate taxes their whole life. It should not be taxed again upon that person's death.

 

My income is taxed. When I pass my income on to, say, my mechanic he then has to pay income tax on it too. When an estate passes from one person to another its income to the recipient.

 

That's different. This "income" is wealth built up over years on the hard work that has already been taxed.

 

[mattp]

We've covered this before. I think the estate tax as double (or triple) taxation and, as such, completely unfair

 

Yes, we've covered this before. The threshold for estate taxes is $2 million, and $4 million for a couple. In the vast majority of cases this is a capital gains tax on growth that has not been taxed. How many people save their paychecks and build up a $4 million estate?

[Gary_Yngve]

And furthermore there are clauses meant to protect small businesses and farmers. Warren Buffett is actually a proponent of the estate tax.

 

Regarding double/triple taxation being unfair, you must be opposed to sales taxes then too.

[sexual_chocolate]

What I perceive from a left is a constant desire to increase taxes, grow government and spend more. Yes, Bush did the latter two, but I don't look to the left for the opposite.

 

you never responded to my note about the fiscal responsibility of clinton. even greenspan, an avowed republican, has the non-partisan integrity to commend clinton on this.

 

i can't say clinton was of the left, but....

[KaskadskyjKozak]

And furthermore there are clauses meant to protect small businesses and farmers. Warren Buffett is actually a proponent of the estate tax.

 

Regarding double/triple taxation being unfair, you must be opposed to sales taxes then too.

 

It's different man. We're talking about a federal tax, aren't we? If you pay federal income taxes your whole life, it's unfair to pay again on your estate.

 

Sales tax is a local tax. It is in lieu of an income tax. I support separate taxes at the federal versus state and local level, assuming the revenue is used appropriately, efficiently, and within a reasonable budget.

[mattp]

And furthermore there are clauses meant to protect small businesses and farmers. Warren Buffett is actually a proponent of the estate tax.

 

Regarding double/triple taxation being unfair, you must be opposed to sales taxes then too.

 

Yup. The story that I heard was that not long ago some Republicans were arguing in Congress that the Estate Tax was putting family farms out of business and the Democrats challenged them to come up with a single example of where this had happened. As I recall, they could not. This point is made here:

link.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

you never responded to my note about the fiscal responsibility of clinton. even greenspan, an avowed republican, has the non-partisan integrity to commend clinton on this.

 

i can't say clinton was of the left, but....

 

LOL. Clinton raised taxes, man! I hardly call that fiscal responsibility. He wanted to spend more, so he taxed more. An analog would be this - you spend too much, and have credit card debt, so you order your employer to give you a raise. How well would that work?

 

And Clinton only balanced the budget with those higher revenues after Newt and the R Revolution took over congress and held him to it. The irony is once an R got in the Whitehouse that supposedly R principle for balanced budgets went down the toilet in the name of pork spending to secure reelection.

 

I've said it before - I think taxes are fair now. Let's not raise or lower them. Let's have government balance the budget using the funds they have today.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

And furthermore there are clauses meant to protect small businesses and farmers. Warren Buffett is actually a proponent of the estate tax.

 

Regarding double/triple taxation being unfair, you must be opposed to sales taxes then too.

 

Yup. The story that I heard was that not long ago some Republicans were arguing in Congress that the Estate Tax was putting family farms out of business and the Democrats challenged them to come up with a single example of where this had happened. As I recall, they could not. This point is made here:

link.

 

Irrelevant. It's fundamentally unfair. Period.

 

The estate tax is an example of a tyrannical government confiscating property when it can, because it can, and this "right" is handed over by the willing masses. You guys talk about civil liberties being violated by Gitmo, waterboarding and wire-tapping, while you willingly cede over your property and life to an ever-powerful government. The irony!

[sexual_chocolate]

what was his tax raise? do you remember?

[Gary_Yngve]

The estate tax is an example of a tyrannical government confiscating property when it can, because it can, and this "right" is handed over by the willing masses.

 

You forget that people only obtained such property through help from the very same government!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

what was his tax raise? do you remember?

 

Don't remember. The figure 39.6% comes to mind for the (highest?) marginal rate.

 

It was the largest tax hike in American history. Previously, Bush 41's was the largest hike, if I recall correctly.

 

I just find it ridiculous that everytime the gov't gets into a jam with their budget they raise taxes. And then they want a pat on the back for being fiscally "responsible"?

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The estate tax is an example of a tyrannical government confiscating property when it can, because it can, and this "right" is handed over by the willing masses.

 

You forget that people only obtained such property through help from the very same government!

 

bullshit.

[sexual_chocolate]

The estate tax is an example of a tyrannical government confiscating property when it can, because it can, and this "right" is handed over by the willing masses.

 

You forget that people only obtained such property through help from the very same government!

 

bullshit.

 

actually, in a fundamental sense, it isn't bullshit, since the entire economic system wouldn't exist without a governmental structure of some sort. the game is set up within parameters outlined and enforced through government's reach, and in this game, some are way better than others.

 

i think it's disingenius to suggest that, in this sense, government isn't helping out the successful game-players.

 

 

[rbw1966]

It's different man. We're talking about a federal tax, aren't we? If you pay federal income taxes your whole life, it's unfair to pay again on your estate.

 

Sales tax is a local tax. It is in lieu of an income tax. I support separate taxes at the federal versus state and local level, assuming the revenue is used appropriately, efficiently, and within a reasonable budget.

 

You listed three taxes: income, capital gains and real estate. Whats a "real estate" tax? Is that a property tax? If so, when did the feds start one and why haven't I been paying it.

 

Wealth being passed from one person to another is income. I'm interested in hearing more about why taxing this is "unfair".

[Gary_Yngve]

without government, there wouldn't be highways, the internet, police/courts/jails... all these things are essential to people being able to scale a business's growth.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The estate tax is an example of a tyrannical government confiscating property when it can, because it can, and this "right" is handed over by the willing masses.

 

You forget that people only obtained such property through help from the very same government!

 

bullshit.

 

actually, in a fundamental sense, it isn't bullshit, since the entire economic system wouldn't exist without a governmental structure of some sort. the game is set up within parameters outlined and enforced through government's reach, and in this game, some are way better than others.

 

i think it's disingenius to suggest that, in this sense, government isn't helping out the successful game-players.

 

 

Government already got its "share" with the first round of taxation.

 

Look, wealth, in an estate has already been taxed. It's something you work at your whole life, and pass on to your family (or whomever) when you die. Government is stepping in to take a pound of flesh out of *greed* (how's that for a turn about?), because they can, and because we let them.

 

Finally, this country is founded on the principle that we grant rights to the government, not the other way around. It is a government of the people, by the people, for the people. We are not people of the government, by the government, for the government. The government does not own us, and we should not be grateful to it. We create the government FOR US.

 

[Gary_Yngve]

I disagree that it's greed. It's all about finding fair proportions (and we agree to disagree on what constitutes fair).

 

I see nothing wrong with saying let's use an estate tax in lieu of higher income taxes. The estate tax is the ultimate in progressive taxes (has no effect on 99% of Americans). Furthermore, the person can live his/her life with a more comfortable amount of cash, because rather than being taxed up front for that income, the tax is happening afterward.

 

For that matter, what if the tax system were such that you didn't pay any income tax, but rather your assets were taxed upon death? Let's not look at the feasibility of maintaining steady cash flow or the implementation.. but would you consider it fair?

 

The problem is that the concept of an estate tax has been made to look evil by calling it the "death tax."

[mattp]

Government already got its "share" with the first round of taxation...

 

There you go again, with the same BS argument. You work all your life and save your paychecks and amass well over $4 million and therefore your heirs pay an estate tax? Estate tax is overwhelmingly applied to long term capital gains. Furthermore, Gary's argument about double taxation applies: property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, etc. may all be argued to be double taxation.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I disagree that it's greed. It's all about finding fair proportions (and we agree to disagree on what constitutes fair).

 

I see nothing wrong with saying let's use an estate tax in lieu of higher income taxes. The estate tax is the ultimate in progressive taxes (has no effect on 99% of Americans). Furthermore, the person can live his/her life with a more comfortable amount of cash, because rather than being taxed up front for that income, the tax is happening afterward.

 

For that matter, what if the tax system were such that you didn't pay any income tax, but rather your assets were taxed upon death? Let's not look at the feasibility of maintaining steady cash flow or the implementation.. but would you consider it fair?

 

The problem is that the concept of an estate tax has been made to look evil by calling it the "death tax."

 

the problem is that many of us think it is fundamentally unfair, double taxation. and, yes, it is a "death tax" - that's when it's collected.

 

I think the tax system will never be perfect. Instead of worrying about who is "rich" or not - let's take what we have today and work with it. Nobody wants to talk about that, now do they. The reason is simple - that would be hard. A lot harder than arbirtrarily raising taxes, hard because you'd piss off somebody on the federal teat (whether its people taking advantage of transfer payment or corporations on corporate welfare, or the military industrial complex, or...).

 

[sexual_chocolate]

Government already got its "share" with the first round of taxation.

 

"got it's share"? says you? one can just as easily argue that no taxes are fair. it's rather arbitrary that you choose to use this definition when deciding on what is fair or not.

 

i think it's MORE than fair, since federal revenue is needed, and i think it should come proportionately from those with more to give.

 

 

Finally, this country is founded on the principle that we grant rights to the government, not the other way around. It is a government of the people, by the people, for the people. We are not people of the government, by the government, for the government. The government does not own us, and we should not be grateful to it. We create the government FOR US.

 

exactly. and i say "tax the rich".