Matt Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 I was wondering if anyone has real life experience using a Tibloc while simul-climbing? FYI, it is used to mitigate some of the danger associated with the scenario where the second falls and pulls the leader off while simul-climbing a.k.a using a "running belay". I have read the literature on the subject -- Climbing No 208, Dec, 15, 2002 "Tech Tip" and "Climb On! Skills for More Efficient Climbing." I would also like to hear from anyone who has used a Ropeman, a Petzl Micro Ascender or a Gibbs Ascender for the same use-- that is, to reduce the disasterous effects of a second falling while simul-climbing. One partner of mine said he would never use it because it was his opinion in the case of a fall the teeth on the Tibloc might cut the rope and the more slack in the system the more likely the rope would be cut. He would rather risk getting pulled of the rock then having his rope cut. I countered his argument with the idea of only using it when leading on two 9 mm ropes and clipping only one, but then the thought of simul-climbing with two ropes is unappealing. Last fall I had a chance to simul-climb with Mattp and I had two Tiblocs clipped to my harness, however we did not use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 matt, i have...though never did fall..... i will explain whilst climbing this weekend!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 i also have a ropeman you can play with too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Matt -Climbing #209 had a letter to the editor from Hank Moon, Technical Information Manager at Petzl America - It went" In reference to the Trad TEch Tip "Bloc party - increase simul-climbing safety" in No. 208, I think it is useful to point out that "simul-climbing safety" is a bit of an oxymoron. A good belay and solid intermediate protection are essential components of a modern climbing safety system. Also, the Petzl Tibloc was designed for emergency use, and must be manually positioned prior to loading to ensure proper function. As this manual positioning is not possible in simul-climbing, such usage is not recommended by Petzl. Climbers who opt to use this technique must accept the increased possibility - and consequences - of system failure, as well as rope damage due to incomplete engagement of the Tibloc. For official technical information on the Tibloc, see www.petzlamerica.com/tibloc/" In short - his stated objection to using in simul is what your friend was objecting too. Carl [ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: cj001f ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 Chalk this up as one man's opinion: I tried this little trick once. I had the tibloc on a bomber nut with a 24" sling. I will never do this again unless I'm climbing something close to vertical and in that case the resulting fall will likely be clean (although long) so why bother?. My experience was that the tibloc and rope can become twisted in the sling when you're not climbing straight up from the tibloc causing a real pain in the ass from rope drag. In retrospect, unless the 2nd can keep virtually all the slack out of the system, you're setting up for a fall onto the sharp teeth in the tibloc. While I wouldn't worry about it cutting the rope and sending you to the deck, I would be concerned with the damage it did to the rope and finishing hard pitches on that rope. In my eyes, if you're simulclimbing you must not fall PERIOD. If the second can't regularly free solo the grade I don't even consider the simul. The second climber should be the better climber in this scenario for obvious reasons...carrying the pack, worse result if 2nd pitches as opposed to leader, etc. To me it's one of those "good in theory, but shitty in practice" deals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 okay i'll embelish a little.. since this piece of gear wether it be the tibloc or the ropeman is going to essentially be your belay.....some time needs to be use to set it up...... we thought about this and will's issues were a concern.... basically you need to make the piece fixed to alleviate much movement.....two opposing equalized pieces is how i answered it.... granted this idea works with limited applications....and should only be used by experts...or balls to walls fools...... simuli climbing should only be attempted by parties whom have a good relationship with each other...trust and known abilites are key to fast and furious climbing...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 JayB, Just curious, how did you clip the Ti-block to the screw? Did you use slings or draws, or did you just clip it sraight in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 13, 2002 Author Share Posted March 13, 2002 Peter Dronkers, in his Techtip in Climbing suggests using a very short draw or no draw at all when clipping into the Tibloc in order to minimize the "tug" that the leader will feel if the second falls. Think of it this way, if there is a 24" runner on the piece with the Tibloc then the Tibloc has 48" of play. This could be enough to pull the leader off. Bill Wright suggests in "Climb On! Skills for More Efficient Climbing" that a piece of protection be placed directly after the piece on which the Tibloc is placed. In the case where the leader falls the second piece will take the weight of the leader, not the piece with the Tibloc. If the leader fell and directly weighted the Tibloc or other similar device the result could be less than ideal. I can imagine linking pitches and clipping the Tibloc to a fixed belay, such as the many two bolt belays on Dreamer. I am also interested in hearing from someone who has used an ascender to self belay and inadvertantly fallen and damaged the rope. I know that a prusik knot is the preferred method of self belaying on a fixed rope, but I am curious to know what people have experienced when falling on a device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 I've used the ti-bloc set up this fall during and ascent of some easy AI stuff on the backside of Flattop in RMNP. We were using two 60Mx8.5mm ropes, and were able to climb 800-1000 feet in a single long pitch with about 10 screws and four TI-blocs placed at full ropelength intervals along the way. We were essentially just taking the technique for a test drive to determine how well it would work in practice. There was no discernable difference in the rope drag, and the additional peace of mind that came along with knowing that I would not be yanked off of the pitch if my second was tagged by a stone, snow sluffs, and miscellaneous other Acts of God(we both felt solid enough on the climb that a fall for any other reason was exceptionally unlikely, or we would have belayed the climb pitch-by-pitch)was nice. Would I recommend the technique? Well, if I were going out with that same partner or someone equally competent I wouldn't hesitate to do use it again myself, with a couple of important caveats. I think that the concerns about rope damage are legitimate, and after talking about on the way home we made plans to drop test the setup on a local WI2 icefall with a piece of rope leftover from a debacle on Hallets (we never did get around to it as we spent the rest of the season on WI stuff). We're pretty good about keeping slack out of the system, but the potential for rope damage is certainly there. Is catastrophic rope failure likely? No, but nonetheless we decided to restrict the use of this technique to routes where: 1) The second falling is and extremely remote possibility 2)We need to move fast because of rockfall, potential for lightning or other bad weather, impending darkness or the sheer length of the route, and 3)the remainder of the route (normally rock) is easy enough that we can get away with using a single rope if we had to. Kieners route on Longs via the Lamb's Slide Couloir comes to mind. After reading through all of these caveats, and knowing that the rule for simulclimbing is that no one falls, you may well be thinking "Why Bother." And if you're thinking that, you probably shouldn't. But for us the extra protection from Acts of God or a catastrophic bit of clumsiness while simulclimbing was worth the trade off - the potential for some sheath damage in the extremely unlikely event of the second falling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 19, 2002 Share Posted March 19, 2002 I have no experience with a Tibloc. So why am a posting anything? Just figured I would pass along a little story. Joe Terravecchia & Steve Larson hiked in to do the Infinite Spur on Foraker a couple years back. They used Tiblocs as accenders periodically getting to the base of the Spur. After getting a sort way up, they had shreaded the sheath on thier ropes so bad, they bailed. Hiked back (no easy task) to the landing strip to get new ropes. They complained to Petzl that the teeth were way too sharp. This was the 1st year the Tibloc was out and maybe they are not as sharp as they use to be. Hard to believe that is bad to step on a rope while it is laying in the dirt but it is o.k. to ascenders (with a cam with sharp teeth). Of course static ropes are more durable than dynamic ropes but we don't climb with thoses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier_Wolfscastle Posted March 19, 2002 Share Posted March 19, 2002 My wife fell while simul-climbing a 5.7. I was leading and she was seconding. With a 8.5 rope and a wandering route, I hardly noticed the weight of her on me. She was actually hanging under a small overhang. It was interesting how much weight was taken of the leader by surface friction and running through protection over the 200 ft rope length. This could have been nasty if the route was steeper/with smaller holds, but then I would probably not be simul-climbing anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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