How Long should projects remain virgin?

[Stewart]

I am not a newbie to climbing.

 

However, at a local crag there has been a sport climb with a red tag on the first bolt for around two years.

 

How long does the route remain virgin? What are the "rules"?

 

Does hanging a rope reserve your route? If there is no tag or rope is it fair game?

 

My Opinion:

 

I feel that no one person owns the rock, but I would give someone respect if they deserved it.

 

All gear lines are always fair game.

 

Sport routes seem like a fuzzy area.

 

What do you think?

 

[blueserac]

I understand that a red tag signifies that the project is ongoing. So if you saw a line of bolts that run out of sight behind a bulge or overwise out of view following this red tagged route and jumped on it, you may encounter an incomplete project and that last bolt that you saw from below may just be that, the last bolt.

 

Hanging a rope to claim it, well if you aren't using that rope to dog it, and it has sat idle for sometime while your having a picknick, checking the team over for ticks in the bikini region, or spending a half hour dogging another line, with repeated and prolonged calls of, "take", then it can be logical for someone with patience to say bugger this and lead it. Use or lose it.

 

Have you ever thought of just climbing it and being done with it. Save the glory and hard effort to the one who originally hung the tag. You get to climb it and they get to open it for others.

 

Dunno, what does your inner voice tell you to do. What is the local ethic surrounding etiquette of this sort in your area?

 

 

Edited May 16, 2007 by blueserac

[Blake]

I think it is a nice courtesy, if someone de-mosses and bolts a route, to let them have a shot at the FA. Some people might say "A shot" is one redpoint attempt, someone might say a week of training for it...

 

Either way, the rock isn't really owned by anyone, so its definitely a grey area. Try and talk to the person who puts the bolts in, maybe the route is beyond their skills and they are looking for a better climber to finish their line.

[pink_chalk]

Posting here would be a wise first step if the route setter were ‘missing in action’. If you can't get in touch with the person that tagged it red, best to make an honest attempt to gather general consensus BEFORE pulling a rope and claiming victory, regardless of time. Great way to start a war-zone at the local crag...............

 

just my 2 pennies

 

sickie

[kevbone]

In this particular circumstance, the route setter seriously injured his back and has not worked in 2 years while he is battling over his work comp claim. This person has only put up 2 routes at this crag, but has over 80 routes to his name elsewhere. He is not new to routes. He is a friend of the developers and has requested that he be able to heal and send the route.

 

The route was repointed by a local climber who disregarded the request that was asked of him to his face on more than one occasion. He basically put his middle finger up at the other locals and said “fuck you im doing it”. What he fails to realize is that there are other climbers who climb the grade and we didn’t touch it. Its called respect.

 

This is an unfortunate circumstance for the originally setter is telling me he is going to pull both his routes down because of the climbers actions. I don’t agree with him doing that but they are his routes.

 

I wish there would have been some communication that would have taken place before the circus started.

 

[phillygoat]

Stewart- I think it's ridiculous that this thing still is "reserved". I mean, c'mon, TWO YEARS! I understand there are extenuating circumstances, but enough is enough. It's a sport climb on the local choss. Fun choss, but still choss. I say let the kids play.

 

There is no rope hanging, the top of the route is visible, and oh, by the way, the red tag that used to be on the first draw is now on the anchor- so maybe it's been done already anyway.

[phillygoat]

Ah, you posted before me Kev. So it WAS done. I don't understand why this guy was so attached to this particular route, especially if it was far from his first.

 

So now he wants to punish the local climbers who had nothing to do with 'disobeying' his wishes, by chopping his routes?!

 

I don't get it.

[kevbone]

 

I don't get it.

 

Neither do I.

[pink_chalk]

well, maybe he will cool off given some time. I can understand his frustrations, I can also understand letting the kids play, what I dont get is the full on disrepect from the person that climbed this route. I was there Saturday, saw the red tag at the anchors, knew it was an on-going project. Yeah its been two years, but the original route setter had a baby, injured his back and trying to heal. The plot thickens.... I dont agree with chopping the bolts off. End the pissing contest and lets climb with respect to the rock and others.

[crimper]

i talked with the "unauthorized sender" yesterday. i told him i wouldn't post about what happened, but i figure i can at least reply now that it's being openly discussed.

 

my take is that the guy just wanted to send the climb and had no empathy, sympathy, respect, or appreciation for either the routesetter or the entire tradition of first ascent ethics.

 

he justified his act by saying he did it to "open up the climb so that everyone else could climb it." yet he admitted he had been told the reasons why nobody else was attempting the climb, even though plenty of people could have sent it.

 

however, two years is a long time to deny people the chance to try the climb, especially since the nature of the injury appears to be open-ended. at what point does the routesetter lose the chance at the FA?

 

i think in theory the guy who sent the climb had some justification for doing so, as two years is a very long time, but in reality, he knew he did not have the routesetter's blessing, and he also knew that the locals/developers at this crag supported the routesetter - so he made a decision that was bound to piss those people off. and now he/we deal with the consequences.

 

so was the send worth the backlash? only time will tell.

[G-spotter]

Two years is two years too long. Good for the unauthorized sender. If everyone waited years and years for bolters to send every project half the routes on the continent would still have rotting red tags.

 

Time before a project goes open should be proportional to time it takes to prep it. If it takes a day to clean and bolt it should be "off limits" for a day. If it takes a month to scrub then give the bolter a month to send. Too much route camping is about the ego of bolters establishing projects way beyond their ability. A little competition will teach them to be more realistic.

[crimper]

g spotter, did you start from the beginning of the thread and see that the routsetter got injured at work right after bolting the line and couldn't climb at all for those two years? in other words, this was not a "project" for him at all, he would have sent the route in no time if not for the injury. so since the two year delay wasn't due to "ego" at all, does that change your response?

[kevbone]

Two years is two years too long. Good for the unauthorized sender. If everyone waited years and years for bolters to send every project half the routes on the continent would still have rotting red tags.

 

Time before a project goes open should be proportional to time it takes to prep it. If it takes a day to clean and bolt it should be "off limits" for a day. If it takes a month to scrub then give the bolter a month to send. Too much route camping is about the ego of bolters establishing projects way beyond their ability. A little competition will teach them to be more realistic.

 

 

G.....like Crimper said, Jason got injured while working. So ego has nothing to do with his delay. He did free the route on TR. I know I belayed him when he did it. We also agreed that it was a potential death route and needed cleaning. The point is a lot of people that climbed there climb the grade (12.a) and completely respected and stood behind Jason (route setter). The person, who sent the route, knew of this respect and said fuck everybody and did it anyway. That is a problem.

Edited May 16, 2007 by kevbone

[G-spotter]

Injured, so what? He should be happy to let others climb his route. Establishing a new line is a public service, not some ego thing. When he heals up and eventually climbs it the moves are going to be the same no matter how many ascents it has had by then.

[chucK]

Why the fuck does anybody care about first ascent of a bolted route at a crag anyway? The big kudos should go to person who manufactured the thing. Thanks for the public service. Put that in the guidebook instead of the first person who climbed it.

[kevbone]

Injured, so what? He should be happy to let others climb his route. Establishing a new line is a public service, not some ego thing. When he heals up and eventually climbs it the moves are going to be the same no matter how many ascents it has had by then.

 

So easy to say that when you are in another country. If it was your good friend who is the injured and he asked to make the FFA no matter how long it took? Would you tell him to f....off? Or would you respect?

[G-spotter]

Take a look at Smith Rocks guide and you'll see plenty of routes bolted by Watts and sent by Tribout with or without Watts permission. Some when Watts was injured. Some that Watts has never been able to redpoint.

[kevbone]

Take a look at Smith Rocks guide and you'll see plenty of routes bolted by Watts and sent by Tribout with or without Watts permission. Some when Watts was injured. Some that Watts has never been able to redpoint.

 

You never answered my question?

 

 

We at this crag are not modeling our crag after Smith Rocks. And personally think it’s a dick move to step on toes and think some of the shit Tribout did was ridiculous, and extremely selfish.

Edited May 16, 2007 by kevbone

[crimper]

well, g spotter has given us his answer, which seems to be that's it's not an issue of morals or ethics, but just survival of the fittest: if a route is bolted and can be led, it should be led by anyone capable of leading, regardless of the specific circumstances surrounding the route or the routesetter. sounds like an easy creed to live by, unless you are the routesetter.

[G-spotter]

Injured, so what? He should be happy to let others climb his route. Establishing a new line is a public service, not some ego thing. When he heals up and eventually climbs it the moves are going to be the same no matter how many ascents it has had by then.

 

So easy to say that when you are in another country. If it was your good friend who is the injured and he asked to make the FFA no matter how long it took? Would you tell him to f....off? Or would you respect?

 

My friends would, and have, offered up their projects if unable to complete themselves within a reasonable time. And I have done the same. Sounds like you guys just have big fish in a small pond syndrome.

 

[kevbone]

Injured, so what? He should be happy to let others climb his route. Establishing a new line is a public service, not some ego thing. When he heals up and eventually climbs it the moves are going to be the same no matter how many ascents it has had by then.

 

So easy to say that when you are in another country. If it was your good friend who is the injured and he asked to make the FFA no matter how long it took? Would you tell him to f....off? Or would you respect?

 

My friends would, and have, offered up their projects if unable to complete themselves within a reasonable time. And I have done the same. Sounds like you guys just have big fish in a small pond syndrome.

 

 

You still have not answered the question......if your GOOD friend asked you not to climb a route and asked you to ward off others from climbing it.....would you respect that to the end?

[G-spotter]

Like I said. My friends are not ego-driven possessive assholes. They would not try and keep a project they could not send private. The type of red-tagging you describe is only found at small, low-quality American crags, and is a local disease of those crags.

[kevbone]

You are very good at sidestepping questions. You still have not answered the question.

[crimper]

kevbone, g spotter is dragging your ass down troll lane, getting you riled up to defend the routesetter and the crag this event took place at. he's doing a good job, too!

 

 

[kevbone]

kevbone, g spotter is dragging your ass down troll lane, getting you riled up to defend the routesetter and the crag this event took place at. he's doing a good job, too!

 

 

Thanks for the heads up....I am not riled up.....just trying to get a straight answer from the Canuk. Looks like he is not up for it. Too bad!