Mt. Fund Aids All-Star Pakistani Women's Climb

[Dechristo]

Mountain Fund Aids All-Star Pakistani Women's Climb

 

April 24, 2007

 

Increasing numbers of all female expeditions are exploring the world's mountain ranges, achieving highly technical climbs in a sport traditionally dominated by men. Pakistani women are ready to join the world of climbing as well. Their country is home to three major mountain ranges - the Himalaya, Karakoram and Pamir - and K2, the second highest mountain in the world. Pakistani women have been unable to learn to climb as cultural norms do not allow contact between men and women who are not directly related and all the climbing instructors in Pakistan are men.

 

A group of American guides will travel to Pakistan in the summer of 2007 to facilitate a mountaineering course for up to 100 female Pakistani women. The goal of the project is to expose women to the world of climbing and mountaineering. Their experience may lead to careers not previously available to them in a growing tourism industry, in mountain rescue or guiding.

 

The course will take place on and around the Passu and Batura glaciers in Northern Hunza, followed by an attempt 19,619-foot Kusheikh Peak, near Khunjerab Pass. Training will be progressive, starting with the basics of mountain survival, travel, and safety. Technical rock and ice climbing as well as glacier travel and self-rescue will be taught throughout the course.

 

The All-Star Guides are: Charlotte Fox, Heidi Kloos, Janet Bergman, Danika Gilbert, Sallie Dean Shatz (photographer) and Cherie Silvera (filmmaker)

 

The Mountain Fund - www.mountainfund.org is providing equipment and funding to assist in this rare effort to bring Pakistani women into the domain of the climbing world. The climbing camp will be coordinated by the American Alpine Club and the Pakistan Alpine Club.

 

Help make history! Please visit www.mountainfund.org and make a donation to support this groundbreaking climbing camp for Pakistani women.

 

About The Mountain Fund

A Global Community for Change.

 

What does it mean to be a Global Community For Change? Poverty, its causes and sypmtoms are complex. There is no one size fits cure-all. Education alone isn't enough, healthcare alone won't create postive and lasting change, neither will support of women's and children's programs. As the popular NPR program "The Bioneers" says, its all connected.. Healthcare can help create children who go off to school ready and able to learn. A quality education is needed to prepare young minds for the future. Following an education, job opportunies are needed as well as access to capital for business to create those jobs. A weak link in this chain and the child is forever locked in the poverty cycle. That's why The Mountain Fund supports efforts in all of these areas, it takes more than a village to raise a child. It takes healthy, literate families with access to support, employment and capital.

A totally unique approach.

 

The Mountain Fund, unlike many nonprofit organizations, does not create new programs and new services in communities where they already exist. A majority of our work is accomplished in partnership with existing community based programs. In many villages, in many countries around the world, good people with strong ties to the community have already identified the need to provide healthcare, build schools, empower women and start micro-finance programs. We build on the prescense and success of these community based organizations and help them to grow stronger and accomplish more. There is no need to re-invent the wheel where a perfectly good wheel exists. We do have a few direct programs that we have started where we were unable to find existing programs to partner with or where our programs add value to to community based parnters we already have.

 

 

The Mountain Fund

Scott MacLennan

Executive Director

 

[crackers]

Out of curiosity, what do you all think about this project vis-a-vis US foreign policy and Pakistani domestic politics?

 

This will be extremely controversial in Pakistan if they publicize it much, and it's coming at a point of pretty serious political tension and uncertainty in the country.

 

So what do you think?

[pindude]

My personal opinion is that it's not all that controversial. Westerners and Yanks have continued to explore and climb in Pakistan over the past 10+ years, although there certainly are areas of Pakistan to avoid for gringos.

 

Thanks for posting, I didn't know much about Mountain Fund before. If their website is an accurate portrayal of the organization, they'll do many great things.

[Dechristo]

The Mountain Fund is a great organization. Everyone who works for them (including myself) are volunteers. They have already accomplished much in aiding and supporting indigenous mountain people and their communities.

 

I believe crackers' question was pointed more toward the elevation and support of women into traditionally male roles in a muslim country. While this type of action will always see opposition from some fundamentalist groups in these cultures, I am in support of actions, such as this from the Mountain Fund, that pursues empowerment of individuals toward self-sufficiency and the broadening of the base of localized economies, with deference to diplomacy.

[sk]

Interesting topic. IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only"

 

I think helping other people in other countires do the things they want to do is great but i think it is really easy for people to go in and "westernize" (I get that is the reaon there is a group of women doing this, so the women can take the classes and not damage their honor and thier families honor. )

 

I would be really intersted to see what this org is doing to help people in the US. we get so focused on helping to educate poor underpriveleged people in other countries when often times what we think is poor and under priveleged is just a difference in culture and priority. is this really what the woman WANT or did someone convicne them somehow? i couldn't answer but that would be my concern. if someone came to me and asked me to teach them to climb even though it was against their religion, i would becuase they asked me to. however, i would never ever try to convicne someone.

 

it is a challenging situation. and one i do not understand well. I think that any human who wants to do a job and is physicaly able should be able to. in the end we all answer to our own gods for the choices we make.

[Sherri]

I see your point, Muffy, about the potentially discriminating nature of packaging something as "for women only" or "for men only," but in this particular instance it appears to be an effective strategy for reaching across a societal barrier(one which would not otherwise permit women exposure to the sport of climbing).

 

I'm not familiar enough with the specifics of the politics or religious hurdles involved in an undertaking such as this, but I applaud the program and its goals.

 

Who knows if this will result in breaking some of the barriers these women face in their day-to-day lives, especially in terms of moving into traditionally male-dominated roles or endeavours, but if it precipitates the discovery of her own personal power in just one women's life, it's a success.

 

I think the nature of climbing provides excellent opportunities for growth and empowerment. Look at how well we all turned out.

 

Thanks for sharing this important issue with us here, DeC. And keep up the good work.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2007 by Sherri

[Thinker]

 

 

fyi, it's not about religion; I suspect not all the Pakistani participants would be Muslim. Pakistan has active, practicing communities of Christians, Hindus, Parsi, and probably a few other religions. However, they typically share common cultural tendencies to avoid contact between unrelated males and females, as noted in the OP.

 

Given that Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, the only way to get such a program for women approved by the government would be to respect the social norms and agree to work within the guidelines expected by the predominantly Muslim officials.

 

I think it's a great opportunity for women to learn the sport and start developing a core group of 'local' female enthusiasts.

 

Why do you say that you're "against their religion?"

 

Interesting topic. IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only"

 

I think helping other people in other countires do the things they want to do is great but i think it is really easy for people to go in and "westernize" (I get that is the reaon there is a group of women doing this, so the women can take the classes and not damage their honor and thier families honor. )

 

I would be really intersted to see what this org is doing to help people in the US. we get so focused on helping to educate poor underpriveleged people in other countries when often times what we think is poor and under priveleged is just a difference in culture and priority. is this really what the woman WANT or did someone convicne them somehow? i couldn't answer but that would be my concern. if someone came to me and asked me to teach them to climb even though it was against their religion, i would becuase they asked me to. however, i would never ever try to convicne someone.

 

it is a challenging situation. and one i do not understand well. I think that any human who wants to do a job and is physicaly able should be able to. in the end we all answer to our own gods for the choices we make.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Thinker

[sk]

 

fyi, it's not about religion; I suspect not all the Pakistani participants would be Muslim. Pakistan has active, practicing communities of Christians, Hindus, Parsi, and probably a few other religions. However, they typically share common cultural tendencies to avoid contact between unrelated males and females, as noted in the OP.

 

Given that Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, the only way to get such a program for women approved by the government would be to respect the social norms and agree to work within the guidelines expected by the predominantly Muslim officials.

 

I think it's a great opportunity for women to learn the sport and start developing a core group of 'local' female enthusiasts.

 

Why do you say that you're "against their religion?"

 

Interesting topic. IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only"

 

I think helping other people in other countires do the things they want to do is great but i think it is really easy for people to go in and "westernize" (I get that is the reaon there is a group of women doing this, so the women can take the classes and not damage their honor and thier families honor. )

 

I would be really intersted to see what this org is doing to help people in the US. we get so focused on helping to educate poor underpriveleged people in other countries when often times what we think is poor and under priveleged is just a difference in culture and priority. is this really what the woman WANT or did someone convicne them somehow? i couldn't answer but that would be my concern. if someone came to me and asked me to teach them to climb even though it was against their religion, i would becuase they asked me to. however, i would never ever try to convicne someone.

 

it is a challenging situation. and one i do not understand well. I think that any human who wants to do a job and is physicaly able should be able to. in the end we all answer to our own gods for the choices we make.

 

read again Thinker, it says IF IT (meaning climbing) is against their religion.

 

i love it when people read what they want into what i write. I made one comment about the social norms of the area in question and one comment about a mythical person requesting me to teach them to climb even if IT was against thier religion.

 

i see what you are saying and i did point out in the comment that i made that i understood that the program is segregated to allow for the social norms of the area.

 

i don't really know much about the culture of the area, however i do think it would be difficult to climb draped in material form head to toe.

 

i am not for or against the program. I think it's great but sticky politicaly.

[Sherri]

 

i don't really know much about the culture of the area, however i do think it would be difficult to climb draped in material form head to toe.

 

Excellent point.

 

The logistical limitations imposed by the wearing of the burqa seem to be a tripping point(literally and figuratively) when these women attempt to transition toward non-traditional activities. Given this, one could say that the mere requirement of the burqa acts an insurance policy against the attainment of complete physical freedom.

 

But then, again, perhaps similar arguments could be made about the stereotypes perpetuated by fashion standards in western cultures, such as make-up, tight jeans, fake fingernails and high heels, although these accoutrements are worn voluntarily?

 

I remember seeing a young (Mennonite?) woman jogging on a hot day while wearing a full headscarf and an ankle length, long-sleeved dress; I could just barely see the running shoes poking out from beneath her hem with each stride. In contrast, I was sweating away in a sports bra and skimpy nylon shorts, feeling the interplay of warm sun and soft breeze on my skin.

 

Here we were in the same country, in the same neighborhood, at the same time, doing the same sport, but we were having completely different experiences.

 

I assumed mine must be better, or more comfortable, at the least but I don't know how if I came to the correct conclusion.

 

I was hot, but she was the one smiling.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2007 by Sherri

[sk]

 

i don't really know much about the culture of the area, however i do think it would be difficult to climb draped in material form head to toe.

 

Excellent point.

 

The logistical limitations imposed by the wearing of the burqa seem to be a tripping point(literally and figuratively) when these women attempt to transition toward non-traditional activities. Given this, one could say that the mere requirement of the burqa acts an insurance policy against the attainment of complete physical freedom.

 

But then, again, perhaps similar arguments could be made about the stereotypes perpetuated by fashion standards in western cultures, such as make-up, tight jeans, fake fingernails and high heels, although these accoutrements are worn voluntarily?

 

I remember seeing a young (Mennonite?) woman jogging on a hot day while wearing a full headscarf and an ankle length, long-sleeved dress; I could just barely see the running shoes poking out from beneath her hem with each stride. In contrast, I was sweating away in a sports bra and skimpy nylon shorts, feeling the interplay of warm sun and soft breeze on my skin.

 

Here we were in the same country, in the same neighborhood, at the same time, doing the same sport, but we were having completely different experiences.

 

I assumed mine must be better, or more comfortable, at the least but I don't know how if I came to the correct conclusion.

 

I was hot, but she was the one smiling.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not really sure what you are trying to get at except that you don't like to run. too bad for you. I do not feel like i have to wear tight jeans or heals. those are things that i like and wear because i like them. I do not feel like i have to wear makeup and i often don't. we have a culture of freedom in this country. our government was founded upon the principle of individual rights (granted then it was ment for white men, but you get my point) i would not be caught dead trying to climb in a coresset and a bustle, but those are not longer FASHIONABLE now are they.

 

so out of curisoity, if you don't want to change the culture in pakistan, why do you support americans going there and training them? dont you think for a moment it is possible that some woman whos brother is a guide could teach her and then she could teach other women? i don't understand why americans feel the need to do this. it reminds me of missionaries. yes they do alot of good, but at the cost of demanding that people pray to the christian god.

 

what is the cost to these woman? who's god will they need to pray to? the god of capitalism? the god of sexual freedom? the god of feminisum?

 

we can not promise them thier lives will be better if they do this. it is possible they will be outcast from thier families and thier comunity. then what?

[minx]

wow- lots of good discussion

 

 

" IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only""

 

i'm not usually a fan of women only functions but there's nothing inherently wrong with getting a group of girls together to have some fun and learn. chicks with picks may seem goofy to you but quite a few women have learned to ice climb that way. not a bad thing if you're a female and little worried about hanging w/the guys when it comes to learning a new sport. remember these women have no familiarity with this type of endeavor.

 

" would be really intersted to see what this org is doing to help people in the US. we get so focused on helping to educate poor underpriveleged people in other countries when often times what we think is poor and under priveleged is just a difference in culture and priority."

 

muffy- i couldn't disagree more. the poverty in so many parts of the world is staggering. i mean truly indescribable. the disparity between the rich and the poor is so great that it makes the US population look uniformly wealthy. its not a difference in culture and priority. its a lack of resources and infrastructure. if it was truly cultural, then no one in those countries would bother to live in a real house, own a car or have electricity -- they do. it oppressive poverty.

 

its good for the US well being to help people in other countries. it hopefully builds some measure of goodwill between us and those with whom we have idealogical differences. here in the US lots of people need help and better access to health care. h/e much of that is due to mismanagement of current programs and money. its not as though billions and billions of dollars don't get poured into these programs each year.

 

"is this really what the woman WANT or did someone convicne them somehow?"

they can choose to take the class if they want to. for many it may be the first real "lifestyle" choice they've had in a while. individually they'll have to decide what personal risks it brings. you can't MAKE someone climb.

 

however i do think it would be difficult to climb draped in material form head to toe.

 

the women will probably not be draped from head to toe if they are climbing with other women only. even if they are perhaps instead of the burqa they can wear salwar instead. not every muslim wears a burqa. not everyone in pakistan is muslim. i worked in a women's only health club many years ago. we had a muslim client. her husband would drop her off fully covered at the front door. she came in and wore regular work out clothes and swimsuits. she only excercised in the rooms with no windows though so no men would see her.

 

" so out of curisoity, if you don't want to change the culture in pakistan, why do you support americans going there and training them? dont you think for a moment it is possible that some woman whos brother is a guide could teach her and then she could teach other women? i don't understand why americans feel the need to do this. it reminds me of missionaries. yes they do alot of good, but at the cost of demanding that people pray to the christian god."

 

because it hasn't been done much. that's not the role that women are viewed in right now. maybe it has but not much obviously. sometimes it takes an outside catalyst to bring change.

 

my guess is sherri means she doesn't want to turn pakistani culture upside down. i'm betting she sees this as a small shift that might improve women's rights which are human rights. women don't have to have the same role as men in a society to be treated respectfully and humanely. its not up to us to determine their role. i do think it's important that we continue to open the doors to basic human rights though.

 

women choose many different roles here in the US. most of the wome in my neighborhood (stepford) don't have jobs. Culture varies here from one city to the next, one region to the next. the difference is the choice and the opportunity. its a misconception that women in pakistan don't work. many in the cities do. this class just creates a new avenue.

 

Edited April 26, 2007 by minx

[motomagik]

Interesting topic. IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only"

 

 

Normally I would agree with this statement but not in the case of a Muslim country. In other places, where women are already considered equals, of course this would be true. But in places where women can be arrested for wearing brightly colored scarves, they need to have the chance to shine on their own.

I think this sounds like an amazing opportunity, and an excellent cause. In all muslim countries women are standing up for their basic human rights, and the world should be supportive.

[minx]

Interesting topic. IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only"

 

 

Normally I would agree with this statement but not in the case of a Muslim country. In other places, where women are already considered equals, of course this would be true. But in places where women can be arrested for wearing brightly colored scarves, they need to have the chance to shine on their own.

I think this sounds like an amazing opportunity, and an excellent cause. In all muslim countries women are standing up for their basic human rights, and the world should be supportive.

 

beautifully susinct. thanks!

[sk]

wow- lots of good discussion

 

 

" IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only""

 

i'm not usually a fan of women only functions but there's nothing inherently wrong with getting a group of girls together to have some fun and learn. chicks with picks may seem goofy to you but quite a few women have learned to ice climb that way. not a bad thing if you're a female and little worried about hanging w/the guys when it comes to learning a new sport. remember these women have no familiarity with this type of endeavor.

 

" would be really intersted to see what this org is doing to help people in the US. we get so focused on helping to educate poor underpriveleged people in other countries when often times what we think is poor and under priveleged is just a difference in culture and priority."

 

muffy- i couldn't disagree more. the poverty in so many parts of the world is staggering. i mean truly indescribable. the disparity between the rich and the poor is so great that it makes the US population look uniformly wealthy. its not a difference in culture and priority. its a lack of resources and infrastructure. if it was truly cultural, then no one in those countries would bother to live in a real house, own a car or have electricity -- they do. it oppressive poverty.

 

its good for the US well being to help people in other countries. it hopefully builds some measure of goodwill between us and those with whom we have idealogical differences. here in the US lots of people need help and better access to health care. h/e much of that is due to mismanagement of current programs and money. its not as though billions and billions of dollars don't get poured into these programs each year.

 

"is this really what the woman WANT or did someone convicne them somehow?"

they can choose to take the class if they want to. for many it may be the first real "lifestyle" choice they've had in a while. individually they'll have to decide what personal risks it brings. you can't MAKE someone climb.

 

however i do think it would be difficult to climb draped in material form head to toe.

 

the women will probably not be draped from head to toe if they are climbing with other women only. even if they are perhaps instead of the burqa they can wear salwar instead. not every muslim wears a burqa. not everyone in pakistan is muslim. i worked in a women's only health club many years ago. we had a muslim client. her husband would drop her off fully covered at the front door. she came in and wore regular work out clothes and swimsuits. she only excercised in the rooms with no windows though so no men would see her.

 

" so out of curisoity, if you don't want to change the culture in pakistan, why do you support americans going there and training them? dont you think for a moment it is possible that some woman whos brother is a guide could teach her and then she could teach other women? i don't understand why americans feel the need to do this. it reminds me of missionaries. yes they do alot of good, but at the cost of demanding that people pray to the christian god."

 

because it hasn't been done much. that's not the role that women are viewed in right now. maybe it has but not much obviously. sometimes it takes an outside catalyst to bring change.

 

my guess is sherri means she doesn't want to turn pakistani culture upside down. i'm betting she sees this as a small shift that might improve women's rights which are human rights. women don't have to have the same role as men in a society to be treated respectfully and humanely. its not up to us to determine their role. i do think it's important that we continue to open the doors to basic human rights though.

 

women choose many different roles here in the US. most of the wome in my neighborhood (stepford) don't have jobs. Culture varies here from one city to the next, one region to the next. the difference is the choice and the opportunity. its a misconception that women in pakistan don't work. many in the cities do. this class just creates a new avenue.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. it is about choice and there are woman with college educations and jobs and careers in pakastan india and all over the place. what i am trying to get at is that i don't neccisarily think that "the american way" is the right way for everyone else.I am not a political or cultural expert nor do i play one on tv. that being said, i don't think it is my business to tell other people how to live. you just said women in pakatan have all these options and choices and jobs and careers already... so i am confused. do these women desperatly need our help or not?

[sk]

Interesting topic. IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only"

 

 

Normally I would agree with this statement but not in the case of a Muslim country. In other places, where women are already considered equals, of course this would be true. But in places where women can be arrested for wearing brightly colored scarves, they need to have the chance to shine on their own.

I think this sounds like an amazing opportunity, and an excellent cause. In all muslim countries women are standing up for their basic human rights, and the world should be supportive.

 

i thought that was Afaganastan

[minx]

muffy- quit being overly broad. its all about context. i'm not saying that a huge majority in pakistan have jobs and choices. i'm just expressing that it's beginning to change.

 

i'm not saying tell them how to live. it's a choice to take this class. human rights though, should not be a choice. they should apply regardless of culture.

 

just for reference, pakistan and india are very different places and really hate each other quite a bit. women's roles in india are much different than they are in pakistan. afaganastan certainly isn't the only repressive muslim society.

[Sherri]

 

i don't really know much about the culture of the area, however i do think it would be difficult to climb draped in material form head to toe.

 

Excellent point.

 

The logistical limitations imposed by the wearing of the burqa seem to be a tripping point(literally and figuratively) when these women attempt to transition toward non-traditional activities. Given this, one could say that the mere requirement of the burqa acts an insurance policy against the attainment of complete physical freedom.

 

But then, again, perhaps similar arguments could be made about the stereotypes perpetuated by fashion standards in western cultures, such as make-up, tight jeans, fake fingernails and high heels, although these accoutrements are worn voluntarily?

 

I remember seeing a young (Mennonite?) woman jogging on a hot day while wearing a full headscarf and an ankle length, long-sleeved dress; I could just barely see the running shoes poking out from beneath her hem with each stride. In contrast, I was sweating away in a sports bra and skimpy nylon shorts, feeling the interplay of warm sun and soft breeze on my skin.

 

Here we were in the same country, in the same neighborhood, at the same time, doing the same sport, but we were having completely different experiences.

 

I assumed mine must be better, or more comfortable, at the least but I don't know how if I came to the correct conclusion.

 

I was hot, but she was the one smiling.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not really sure what you are trying to get at except that you don't like to run. too bad for you. I do not feel like i have to wear tight jeans or heals. those are things that i like and wear because i like them. I do not feel like i have to wear makeup and i often don't. we have a culture of freedom in this country. our government was founded upon the principle of individual rights (granted then it was ment for white men, but you get my point) i would not be caught dead trying to climb in a coresset and a bustle, but those are not longer FASHIONABLE now are they.

 

 

I love to run. But that wasn't the point. My point was that governments, religions, or cultures that require women(not men) to wear inherently restrictive clothing are ensuring more than female modesty by doing so.

 

But given that some women in these circumstances still manage to achieve so much deserves noting.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2007 by Sherri

[sk]

muffy- quit being overly broad. its all about context. i'm not saying that a huge majority in pakistan have jobs and choices. i'm just expressing that it's beginning to change.

 

i'm not saying tell them how to live. it's a choice to take this class. human rights though, should not be a choice. they should apply regardless of culture.

 

just for reference, pakistan and india are very different places and really hate each other quite a bit. women's roles in india are much different than they are in pakistan. afaganastan certainly isn't the only repressive muslim society.

 

well the main religion in india is hindu and not muslim. although both countries have a variaty of religious influences. YOu know i love to stir the pot minx it is my joy in life. I agree, human rights should apply world wide. and that is a great concept. i am not so sure america is the country to set the standards or enfource them.

 

I actuly do understand that other countries do not benifit from the kind of infostructure and opertunities for wealth that even the most dis advantaged americans have.

 

I am greatful we have the rights that we have. It would be great to climb K2 one day. so i do understand the need to have a cultural exchange and friendly relationship with the country and the people.

 

i am not saying it is a bad idea. what i am ASKING is... what are the consequences going to be? with every action there are intended consequences and unintended consequences. has any one thought that out? could it be possible that life would then become more difficult for the women chosing to take the class? we can go in on our ritious high horse of thinking we know what is best, but do we?

 

one more time, i am not for or against this. i think it is sticky politicaly.

[motomagik]

Interesting topic. IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only"

 

 

Normally I would agree with this statement but not in the case of a Muslim country. In other places, where women are already considered equals, of course this would be true. But in places where women can be arrested for wearing brightly colored scarves, they need to have the chance to shine on their own.

I think this sounds like an amazing opportunity, and an excellent cause. In all muslim countries women are standing up for their basic human rights, and the world should be supportive.

 

i thought that was Afaganastan

 

You mean Afghanistan? And yes, they are a predominantly muslim country as well. Actually the particular instance that I was referring to I beleive happened in Iran, I can't remember. Does it matter? The point was that Muslim women are horribly repressed and have zero basic human rights. But some are taking tremendous risks to facilitate change, and that is amazing and inspiring.

[sk]

Interesting topic. IMHO i think the program should be open to men and women. I am just as opposed to things being "women only" as i am to them being "men only"

 

 

Normally I would agree with this statement but not in the case of a Muslim country. In other places, where women are already considered equals, of course this would be true. But in places where women can be arrested for wearing brightly colored scarves, they need to have the chance to shine on their own.

I think this sounds like an amazing opportunity, and an excellent cause. In all muslim countries women are standing up for their basic human rights, and the world should be supportive.

 

i thought that was Afaganastan

 

You mean Afghanistan? And yes, they are a predominantly muslim country as well. Actually the particular instance that I was referring to I beleive happened in Iran, I can't remember. Does it matter? The point was that Muslim women are horribly repressed and have zero basic human rights. But some are taking tremendous risks to facilitate change, and that is amazing and inspiring.

 

so are they being repressed by thier religion or by their government? or are they the same? are the women who live in those countries who are not muslim as reperssed?

 

 

[motomagik]

Good questions, I'm not sure of the answers. I think since government and religion are not exactly seperate that the repression they face comes from both sides. But mainly from government as they enact the laws and arrest the women?

As for non-Muslim ladies in these countries, I have no idea. Are there very many? I doubt it.

[sk]

Good questions, I'm not sure of the answers. I think since government and religion are not exactly seperate that the repression they face comes from both sides. But mainly from government as they enact the laws and arrest the women?

As for non-Muslim ladies in these countries, I have no idea. Are there very many? I doubt it.

 

 

personaly i don't know either, and i hesitate to be in favor of any program where i don't know what the impact will be or how people will be effected.

[knotzen]

i'm not usually a fan of women only functions but there's nothing inherently wrong with getting a group of girls together to have some fun and learn. chicks with picks may seem goofy to you but quite a few women have learned to ice climb that way. not a bad thing if you're a female and little worried about hanging w/the guys when it comes to learning a new sport. remember these women have no familiarity with this type of endeavor.

 

[Sherri]

so are they being repressed by thier religion or by their government? or are they the same? are the women who live in those countries who are not muslim as reperssed?

 

 

Doesn't seem to matter if the individual woman is Muslim or not, if the government is, then the laws seem to apply to women across the board.

 

Wikipedia: Saudi Arabia Human Rights Excerpt:

"Women's rights

Saudi women face severe discrimination in many aspects of their lives, including education, employment, and the justice system. Although they make up 70% of those enrolled in universities, women make up just 5% of the workforce in Saudi Arabia [1], the lowest proportion in the world. Implementation of a government resolution supporting expanded employment opportunities for women met resistance from within the labor ministry[2], from the religious police [3], and from the male citizenry[4]. These institutions and individuals generally claim that according to Sharia a woman's place is in the home caring for her husband and family.

 

In the legal system, women face discrimination as the criminal laws of Saudi Arabia adhere to strict Islamic precepts. An example of this is are the requirements for testifying in criminal proceedings; The witness must be deemed sane, the age of an adult, and a Muslim. Non-Muslims may not testify in criminal court. Women may not testify unless it is a personal matter that did not occur in the sight of men. The testimony of a woman is not regarded as fact but as presumption. The reasons women are forbidden to testify in criminal proceedings are (quote):

 

1. Women are much more emotional than men and will, as a result of their emotions, distort their testimony.

 

2. Women do not participate in public life, so they will not be capable of understanding what they observe.

 

3. Women are dominated completely by men, who by the grace of God are deemed superior; therefore, women will give testimony according to what the last man told them.

 

4. Women are forgetful, and their testimony cannot be considered reliable.

 

As a result of these laws women are particularly vulnerable in cases of assault and/or rape, as their testimony is treated as a presumption, while that of their attackers is accepted as fact.

 

Women are not allowed to drive or ride bicycles on public roads in large cities. However, most women are capable of driving, and some do so on rural roads illegally.[citation needed] Women are allowed to fly aircraft, though they must be chauffeured to the airport.[5] Education, although limited, has become an important aspect. Religious police enforce a modest code of dress; foreign women are also expected to wear abaya, violators may face caning, harassment or fines. There are numerous legal restrictions of what kind of jobs women can do (as to prevent their direct contact with men). Progressively over the decades, many foreigners residing in the Kingdom have reported that enforcement of dress code laws has become slightly less strict.[citation needed] Institutions from schools to ministries to restaurants are always sex-segregated. Women cannot be admitted to a hospital, examined by a doctor, travel abroad or leave the house without the express permission and/or company of an immediate male relative. After their first menstrual cycle, women must cover their entire body in a long black cloak (abaaya) as according to tradition.[citation needed] Failing to do so results in severe punishment."

 

 

[motomagik]

Thanks Sherri!

 

I think that we are putting too much stock into the political "what if's". There is so much going on in these countries that I seriously doubt a project of this size would have any large repercussions. Thats speculation of course. What I see is an amazing opportunity to inspire a handful of women, give them an opportunity that they would probably never experience otherwise, and maybe have a longstanding effect on their lives. Whats not to support?