carolyn Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Im starting to do a bit more climbing instruction through a gear shop and working on some potential projects with a few organizations to develop/lead some climbing programs for them. I also help teach clinics at some ice festivals and have been asked to do some private lessons. (The funniest one was one of the major US advertising firms asking me to help them design a climbing wall to put in their office and supervise for a one night gig. Made some good money, got some free gear, and had them donate the wall and remaining gear to a inner city school I used to work at ) Anyway, I know I have to be careful about this type of activity due to liability. Ive looked at the AMGA site and wondered how useful the top rope site manager certification would be. The Rock Guide Cert would obviously be the most credible. However, the likelihood of me leading 10+trad on a regular basis in the very near future is probably not feasible. Thats what they seem to require in order to take the course. Has anyone taken this course before? Other than maybe learning some kewl new tricks, will it offer me any security regarding liability? Will it look good in the eyes of the insurance companies that my employers work with? How important is it to employers (other than gyms) for their employees to have such a certification? Ive heard mixed reviews from a FEW people. I thought I would throw it out to the masses. And Strickland-if youre out there (or anyone else)...help refresh my memory from Rec 101 regarding the types of organized groups and liability?!?! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 you will learn a ton! take it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alasdair Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Yea It is quite likely your next step, and mike is correct you will learn a ton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 you will learn a ton! take it I dont doubt that. Does it make me more marketable and less liable, though? If not, I can and do learn a lot from partners who have already taken the class or have been climbing for decades. I would rather put the money into wfr or an extended climbing trip if its not going to help me be more credible with the work I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alasdair Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 An AMGA course is going to make people take you more seriously. I dont think you will regret it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alasdair Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 As far as more marketable I think it will help you. As I understand it the more training you have the less liable you should have as long as you dont fuck up too badly. You should ask a lawyer about that though. You might also want to send a mail to AMGA about the liability thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montypiton Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Liability was a prime factor in the birth of the AMGA - an insurance industry crisis in the mid-80s resulted in the entire adventure guiding industry in the US losing liability insurance, and the AMGA was the climbing community's response to that crisis. They can definitely help with your liability concerns. If you're not prepared to fork up for certification courses, at least join up. Membership alone will make you more "credible". Ultimately, your liability concerns must be met not by certification, but by appropriate legal counsel and insurance. The AMGA helps its members with all of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 What are you concerned being liable for? No certification will protect you from gross negligence, for example... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_Martin Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 An AMGA course is an excellent step toward being considered a "professional" by those you teach and by those who you might teach. As far as liability, you will need an airtight waiver. This will help to protect you. An AMGA course will help to protect you as well because if something were to go to court and the question arose about what the industry standard was, you'd be on the same page. Indeed, the liklihood of needing to go to court will go down as you obtain more training and have less loopholes in your own skillset. As far as the waiver is concerned, you should look at a number of guide service waivers. Most companies have them on the net for their clients. Make one up of your own and then have a lawyer go over it... Good luck! Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 (edited) Jason is right about the waiver and industry standard compliance. I might guess that having a professional certification indirectly (or maybe directly...?) makes you MORE liable in that you are now held to these standards. This issue came up a number of times when I was working in risk management. Compare a professional, fully certified guide with a volunteer instructor for the Mounties. In the case of an accident, an AMGA guide is held to a much higher standard than their volunteer counterpart. That said, absolutely take the certification. I have a couple of friends who took it and said they learned a ton. Edited January 4, 2007 by Figger_Eight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 Thanks for the input. I read quite a bit of the website again. Some things have changed since I looked at it last summer. nothing drastic. Who ever suggested getting in touch with amga - good idea. I have quite a few questions, so I think I will give them a ring and see if they feel this is appropriate 'next step' to take. I'm leaning toward, YES. Reading the site inspires me to work even harder at my climbing so I could take the rock guide course in the future. There sure is a lot of paperwork to fill out, in addition to a pre-test from the guiding company teaching the course. YIKES! One question I might throw out...What would you define as a 'guide'. A lot of the questions they ask are about your guiding experience. I teach classes and clinics, I facilitate ropes courses, I have taken new folks out climbing often, and led week long camping trips. I have lots of leadership experience in the outdoors. I guess I consider guiding as taking a paying client climbing outside. I wouldnt consider anything I have done to be congruent with that. There are also a few classes this spring at smith. Im planning on heading to the PNW in late march/early april. Its tempting to do it out there! I will keep you posted on the information I get and what I decide. Thanks again! carolyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treknclime Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I think if you make any $$ while doing any climbing instruction, you are technically guiding. And...because you're accepting $$, you are for sure personally liable (and your personal home owners insurance won't cover that stuff). Unless you can show insurance companies you have the proper training, ongoing training (in some cases), first-aid certs, and skill set, you will likely not get insurance. If you can work through a company who already has insurance, you will likely come under their insurance program. Even so, you will need that FA training and some kind of annual "guide" training, depending on your guiding venue. The AMGA should be able to respond to your questions, and without a doubt, the AMGA guide instructors really have things dialed in...and you will learn tons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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