MT Hood Continued

[Rob Danner]

from the pings on James' cell phone, they could tell he was turning his phone on and off as recently as last Tuesday.

[Thinker]

 

There are a good number of people that find questioning the chain of events as disrespectful. I disagree. If I, or someone from my close circle where to perish in similar circumstances I would really want the world to know what happened. I am a very firm believer in the adage of "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it". Churchill's statement doesn't just apply to world politics.

 

The flip side of that coin is that I do agree that the recall of events needs to be as accurate as possible. Speculation and theory may make for interesting conversations and people may be able to glean some insight or knowledge about risk managment/accident prevention. However, speculation and theories does not do the people directly involved any sort of justice. Only the recount of true events (to the best we can learn) will honor the fallen and teach the living.

 

I like to think that should my life be ended prematurely in the pursuit of my passions, my last moments will not have been in vain. That someone, somewhere, will discover what happened, be them good attempts or horrible mistakes, and learn from those moments. Do not make the same errors that I may or may not have made. If I succembed to a twist of fate beyond my control or if I made a lethal momentary lapse in judgement..find the truth, share it, learn from it.

 

 

Good comments. To go a little further, it makes my climbing partners, friends, and family all look at me quite strangely when I tell them that if I ever take a fatal fall or am mortally wounded on a mountain, please DON'T risk any lives to retrieve my lifeless corpse or dying body.

 

We all accept a certain amount of risk each time we get out of bed. I think that in mountaineering and other high-risk activities we need to assume a personal responsibility for this risk. In my case I make it well known that I don't want anyone else to risk their lives for me unless there is a clear indication that the risk has a high probability of saving a life.

[jfmctlaw]

Care to comment on how long a person can survive who starts into hypothermia and doesn't get treatment? This would be useful for all of us to know for the future.

 

 

That is a long subject, dependent on many variables (hydration, exertion, air or water temp, wind chill, wet or dry clothing, time of last meal, blood loss from trauma). If we are talking hypothermia only the speed of demise primarily depends on the temperature differential the person is experiencing on their skin. You can become hypothermic by swimming in a lake in July if the water is cool enough, there is a nice breeze and you stay in for some time.

 

I don't want to say much more for fear of being 'spanked' for being off topic. I already got spanked yesterday.

[Christy]

Zeta: that Wiki article on hypo is really helpful, but I also found a lot of info that indicates that there are lots of variation in how fast it progesses depending on several factors.

 

See also:

http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antarctica%20fact%20file/science/cold_humans.htm

 

[Gary_Yngve]

Care to comment on how long a person can survive who starts into hypothermia and doesn't get treatment? This would be useful for all of us to know for the future.

 

There's no set time. It depends on the circumstances and the care. Hypothermia needs to be treated early and aggressively.

 

Generally there are three phases of hypothermia:

mild: grumble, mumble, fumble, bumble... shivering

moderate: violent shivering, more disorientation, lack of coordination

severe: shivering ceases

 

They correspond to core body temperatures too... I dunno exactly, as I'm not the type to want to stick a thermometer up someone's ass, but it's probably something like: mild >= 96, moderate >=91

 

The first goal in treating hypothermia is to eliminate means of cooling. That would mean protecting from wind/weather, replacing wet clothes with dry, and insulating.

 

Second goal is to make the body more capable of warming itself. Water, food, oxygen (I'm beyond my knowledge here, but I'd guess O2 would only be useful at altitude, CO, or other cases of decreased respiratory performance?)

Many people who are hypothermic are also dehydrated.

 

Third goal is to rewarm. Drinking hot cocoa and snuggling may have psychological effect but little warming effect. With a fire, I'd be concerned about carbon monoxide and about burning someone who may not be able to feel how hot things are.

 

If someone is so cold they barely have a pulse and could have HR/RR of a few times a minute, extreme care must be given not to jostle them, as sending cold/stagnant blood to the heart could stop it.

 

There's a weird stage of hypothermia right before someone dies of it where they suddenly feel euphorically warm and feel the need to shed clothes.

 

There's a whole other issue of CPR contraindication/not dead until warm that I'll punt on.

[mattp]

Christy,

We all have different opinions about what are good and bad questions, what may be disrespectful, or whatever. Some may find any discussion at all to be disturbing or tedious or whatever, while others will want to go into minute detail. We come in all shapes and sizes.

[kjlfaiejlifli]

Phone call (can also be found in a Dallas paper, found by Google search using "Jason James" "Kelly" and "airplane" as keywords.)

 

http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/nation/16256493.htm

[mdw]

The climbers may have suffered through weather similar to conditions on Mount Everest, the world's highest peak, said Jim Whittaker, who in 1963 became the first American to climb to the top of Everest.

 

"It can turn into an Everest when you get those high winds and snow," said Whittaker, speaking from his home in Port Townsend, Wash. "You get knocked over by the wind. Your goggles fog up. You can't even travel."

 

This bit of insight said alot about the NF of Hood

[Christy]

Thanks, Matt.

 

Using the info on PING you all gave me, I did a more detailed search and found this great description. I post it here for the others who were inquiring about the specifics of pinging after I posed my question.

 

"Once solely the lingo of technogeeks, a "ping" has now become part of the common language of Oregon search and rescue teams.

 

A "ping" is essentially a signal sent from a cell phone to a provider tower or vice versa.

 

Oregon rescue officials said a ping from a family cell phone was critical in narrowing the search for the James Kim family in the mountains of Southern Oregon last week. James Kim died of hypothermia, but his wife and their two children were rescued.

 

This week, rescue workers are again working with cell phone signals - this time in their search for three climbers who've gone missing on Mount Hood.

 

A phone must be on and in a coverage area to register a ping, either by sending or receiving a signal. Once a ping is registered, a cell phone provider can narrow the location of a handset based on the location of the receiving cell towers.

 

T-Mobile spokesman Peter Dobrow said his company works daily with law enforcement officers to help locate people in life-and-death situations. And he said the company has been working around the clock with searchers on Mount Hood.

 

"The ping is essentially the handset's way of saying: 'I'm here and I'm ready to be used,' " Dobrow said."

 

http://www.katu.com/news/local/4908701.html

[Gary_Yngve]

Is this "ping" any more accurate than the GPS coords returned from E911?

[Thinker]

A phone must be on and in a coverage area to register a ping, either by sending or receiving a signal. Once a ping is registered, a cell phone provider can narrow the location of a handset based on the location of the receiving cell towers.

 

T-Mobile spokesman Peter Dobrow said his company works daily with law enforcement officers to help locate people in life-and-death situations. And he said the company has been working around the clock with searchers on Mount Hood.

 

"The ping is essentially the handset's way of saying: 'I'm here and I'm ready to be used,' " Dobrow said."

 

http://www.katu.com/news/local/4908701.html

 

Slight tangent: It has been reported that many phone companies work with the FBI to turn on cell phone microphones that can be monitored remotely, effectively turning them into "bugs" or surveilance devices. Of course, a phone has to be on for this to work.

 

[Zeta Male]

Hello.

 

I found the following post on another forum and thought you might be interested in reading it. I hope you don't think I'm silly for putting this here but I know first hand how some simple information never makes it to the most important people.

 

I am not a climber. I'm just a person praying all of you stay safe.

 

--------------

 

Patti McInroe Says:

December 18th

I was up on mt. hood snowshoeing yesterday (sunday). We were in a clearing and had a perfect view of the South side of the mt. hood. We were watching all of the helicopter activity searching for the climbers and all of the sudden I saw a flash that looked like a shiny mirror reflection…like a mirror calling for HELP. It came from about half way down the mountain and right in the middle. I hope they look on the south side. They could be stuck and unable to walk. I thought about it all night and hope this info can be passed on.

 

Very concerned!

Patti

 

here's the link:

 

http://thehendricksreport.wordpress.com/2006/12/18/the-adventurist-makes-contact-with-mt-hood-sheriffs-department-after-tip-left-on-site/

 

 

 

 

Relatives of the climbers may not want to read this.

 

Folks, I know the searchers are the best qualified to take care of matters and I have much confidence that they will do the best thing, but I'd really like to see some effort put into having a a helicopter fly slowly and low up and down Zig-Zag and White River Canyons looking for signs of the two missing climbers; I've seen nothing to indicate that this has been done and, as Sean's post yesterday stated and others since have pointed out, there's nothing definitive that proves the two missing climbers didn't head out south towards Timberline Lodge, which they may have then missed. Sean (one of the rescuers) said in his post yesterday that most of the footprints found in the summit area are faint and subject to interpretation.

 

The fact that the woman quoted hasn't completed numerous fast-and-light Cascade ascents doesn't make her an idiot, and while I'm skeptical that the noted reflection was anything more than the windshield of a car headed to Timberline, I've seen and heard nothing to indicate that a thorough aerial search of the southern flanks has been attempted. This bothers me.

 

Eight-nine-ten years ago or so the body of a missing climber was discovered in one of the noted canyons years after he'd gone missing; authorities were quoted as being very surprised at the location since all of the initial rescue and recovery efforts had focused on the N/NE side.

[Zeta Male]

Care to comment on how long a person can survive who starts into hypothermia and doesn't get treatment? This would be useful for all of us to know for the future.

 

Hypothermia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia

 

I read the Wikipedia article before I posted; it doesn't answer the question.

[Christy]

Is this "ping" any more accurate than the GPS coords returned from E911?

 

Sounds like it is the same lat & long info you'd get from the enhanced 911...within 150 m or something.

[jfmctlaw]

Is this "ping" any more accurate than the GPS coords returned from E911?

 

Pinging or making a routine call does not give accurate location info to the Telco. At worst it says you are 'near' some tower.

 

A 911 call transmits the GPS info and they know where you are usually withing +/- 2 meters.

[Zeta Male]

Is this "ping" any more accurate than the GPS coords returned from E911?

 

Pinging or making a routine call does not give accurate location info to the Telco. At worst it says you are 'near' some tower.

 

A 911 call transmits the GPS info and they know where you are usually withing +/- 2 meters.

 

Assuming you have a GPS-capable cell-phone and are within range of ANY towers.

[Gary_Yngve]

jfmctlaw, maybe that accuracy in the city, where you have multiple towers within a few miles. From my SAR experiences, the E911 info has been of varying accuracy. Sometimes it's pretty darn good, sometimes a quarter mile off, sometimes more...

[Zeta Male]

Is this "ping" any more accurate than the GPS coords returned from E911?

 

Pinging or making a routine call does not give accurate location info to the Telco. At worst it says you are 'near' some tower.

 

A 911 call transmits the GPS info and they know where you are usually withing +/- 2 meters.

 

Will an analog transmission send GPS info?

[jfmctlaw]

jfmctlaw, maybe that accuracy in the city, where you have multiple towers within a few miles. From my SAR experiences, the E911 info has been of varying accuracy. Sometimes it's pretty darn good, sometimes a quarter mile off, sometimes more...

 

I agree accuracy can vary and certainly be less than what I quoted, but the accuracy has nothing to do with cell towers on a 911 call. It has to do with how many GPS satellites your phone can receive. (Yes, you have a tiny GPS receiver inside your phone) The more sky, usually the better accuracy, so above tree line is usually very good. Now if you can't hit a cell tower from the mnt then you are SOL b/c you can't transmit that fine GPS coords from your phone.

[ketch]

Is this "ping" any more accurate than the GPS coords returned from E911?

 

The "ping" is less accurate than the GPS info. In a twist of regulations if the call goes throgh a 911 operator they can have the phone transmit the GPS data it is currently receiving. If the call is not through the 911 operator it takes a court approval to get it or the phone operator needs to activley permit other users to access it. In either case the GPS data gives an accurate location measured external to the current challenge.

 

A ping is just a handshake between devices but the cell company reads the bearing that the answer arrives from relative to the tower. Like other navigation technigues each tower gives a bearing the more towers that give info the smaller the area of intersection is.

[bestbuddy]

Bringing this forward for those who missed it:

 

#620549 - Yesterday at 04:00 PM Re: MT Hood Continued [Re: ClimbingPanther]

sean_beanntan sean_beanntan

 

 

 

 

To answer a question. It seems that the climbers did summit because faint tracks were found near the summit plateau leading towards the Wyeast Route. Most likely they were not trying to descend down the Pearly Gates (as per news reports) but looking

for the Cooper Spur route. They miscalculated (got lost) and

descended too far SE to the Wyeast Route instead and dropped approx 350 ft. There they discovered their error, traversed East about 150ft and built a snow cave (big enough for 3) to await the next morning. The next day James remained in the cave, one or two? climbers traversed further East on very steep terrain towards the Cooper Spur crest. There they continued their decent another 100ft down the crest. They then chose to go further to skiers left beyond the crest where they established another smaller cave and the rap anchors on steep terrain. After that.... is a mystery that left behind one backpad pad, some pickets? and 2 technical axes in the cave. There is evidence that the rope was cut.

 

Please appreciate the conditions that these climbers were facing. To error is human and maybe some were made that day. But its also likely that they fought long and hard to make it down. They operated for a time under extreme conditions and as a human being and as a climber I have to respect that.

 

[ketch]

[quote=Zeta Male

Will an analog transmission send GPS info?

 

Yes, in theory. An analog call can transmit the GPS data. However that is only if the phone is analog capable and GPS enabled. Very few of them are at this time. Also analog signals are sort of a last resort for phones. Once you are analog it is questionable if the call will make it at all.

 

But definatley worth trying.

[Gary_Yngve]

I agree accuracy can vary and certainly be less than what I quoted, but the accuracy has nothing to do with cell towers on a 911 call. It has to do with how many GPS satellites your phone can receive. (Yes, you have a tiny GPS receiver inside your phone) The more sky, usually the better accuracy, so above tree line is usually very good. Now if you can't hit a cell tower from the mnt then you are SOL b/c you can't transmit that fine GPS coords from your phone.

 

I don't think most cellphones have a GPS... I thought they calculate the triangulations of the celltowers themselves to get coords, instead of having the celltowers compute it?

[roadrunner]

here's another prospect theory.....perhaps kelly had trust and faith in his fellow climbers in their recovery efforts that he didn't want to worry his family so he didn't call immediately. he tried to wait it out waiting on help to return, thus, when he realized help was either taking too long with his worsening condition or possibly not coming, he notified his family. we know he didn't tell them he was hurt thus again shielding them of the reality of his true injured condition other than not doing well.

 

has anyone has thought more about the comment of two sets of footprints being close together like possibly someone was helping an injured? do you think there was any possibility that in the same situation as kelly got hurt, another one of the climbers did as well? which only left 2 of them and an explanation as to why some equipment was left behind in one of the caves. we know the statements from the phone call say kelly said brian was in town looking for help and nikko was on an airplane. possibly he could have meant brian went down to look for help and nikko was on an airplane meaning he didn't survive, but yet was shielding telling his family of this info so they didn't worry or possibly a bad connection and airplane or avalanche? i personally don't think he was that incoherant. i agree with some of the other posters who said he was coherant enough to dial the correct #'s, say what he had left in his food pack, etc. to be so far off on the airplane comment.

[Zeta Male]

Post deleted by Zeta Male