mycoatl Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 RE: questions about signals. A "Y" does signal Yes. To indicate the direction of travel, an arrow <- or "K" is typically used. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 I mean, if 2 left they would have taken a rope with them, and I'd be surprised if they had more than 2 ropes. they may have cut their rope into shorter lengths. for glacier travel like down the south side a half of a rope length would be sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryland_moore Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 For all of the newbies or those just joining the conversation, PLESE RE-READ PREVIOUS POSTS. Most of you questions have already been answered. And no, East Coast hiker, they did not indicate S. Side would be their escape route in an emergency, they said they would descend the Cooper Spur directly beside the North Face. As for leaving gear, I think Bone puts it clearly. That two of the climbers who left for help last Saturday/Sunday may have left some of their ice tools (ice tools are not ice axes). Ice tools are used on steeper terrain, like what you would expect ice climbers to use. They are short as well. Ice axes are longer and do not have a very angled head. This is used on less steep terrain and when climbing general glaciers not over 45-50 degrees. They are longer so you don't have to bend over to place the axe point in the snow. If the other two climbers left theri technical ice tools in the cave, That would indicate to me that they were heading over to the SOuth side to descend and just took their ice axes for the S. Side descent. Ice tools would be useless on the S. side as you cannot use them when descending low-angled terrain and you usally cannot self arrest with them because the pick angle so steep that it would jerk the ice tools out of your hands. Also, they did not indicate that there was a pack in the cave. So the shovel, pack, and everything else is gone from the cave but just a rope, sleeping bag, and ice tools? You would not need a rope to descend the south side with the amount of snow out there. There is one burgschrund, but it is definitely closed up this late in the year. I'd say they moved either to rescue themselves or to move the cave due to poor position during the storm. Thery are out there, just have to find them..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Male Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 They did summit, and I believe their cave is on the south side. Either way If they are ok they should be trying to get down today on their own power. That is what I would do today if I was in that situation. Why do you think the cave that was found is on the south side? It wasn't; that was XXX speculating on what would've made the most sense for them to have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Mac Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 I understand that each person would have at least a tool and ice axe, maybe 2 tools and an axe, a South side decent only requires an axe (for self arrest) particularly for the upper portions un roped. The searchers should have air horns. I have often thought of ways to identify an emergency cave, the best I can come up with is a dye pack that would bleed through several feet of snow. It would need to be a contrasting color other than black. but that is a conversation for later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeyore Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Still wishing everyone best of luck. One comment. They keep saying that the "Y" is meant and 'yes, I am here'. That's not what I think it meant. Wouldn't that be an arrow pointing out that they left and which direction they may have gone? It was more this /\ than a Y, and was clearly visible in some of the video being show about 2 hours ago. The solo SAR guy who was belayed down the north face slope started digging 5 to 10 feet above the apex of the /\, and each "leg" of it looked to be about 15 to 20 feet long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHwildcats76 Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 No, all I know is what I've learned and read on this board and the media, trying to interject some common sense in the process. I've heard people say you can melt snow to drink with your body, or catch melting snow from the interior surface. But then I've also read that's not enough to keep you going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Male Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Big Mac, they each had two tools I'm sure. The north Face is a technical climb requiring two tools. My guess is the two guys who went out for help just took one sleeping bag and one tool each. Leaving the third man behind with an extra sleeping bag and their extra tools. Eventually the third guy decided to move, probly bacause he was frezzing to death sitting still for so long. he left the extra sleeping bag and tools behind and went up. just my guess. But isn't there an arrest technique involving the use of two axes, I believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHwildcats76 Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 No, all I know is what I've learned and read on this board and the media, trying to interject some common sense in the process. I've heard people say you can melt snow to drink with your body, or catch melting snow from the interior surface. But then I've also read that's not enough to keep you going. If those teenagers stayed up there in '76 for 13 days, either it wasn't as cold, and/or they had plenty of fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 I understand that each person would have at least a tool and ice axe, maybe 2 tools and an axe, a South side decent only requires an axe (for self arrest) particularly for the upper portions un roped. They wouldn't carry three axes/tools. They'd have two technical axes each. it is frustrating having this conversation with people who don't know anything about climbing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWNick Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Big Mac, they each had two tools I'm sure. The north Face is a technical climb requiring two tools. My guess is the two guys who went out for help just took one sleeping bag and one tool each. Leaving the third man behind with an extra sleeping bag and their extra tools. Eventually the third guy decided to move, probly bacause he was frezzing to death sitting still for so long. he left the extra sleeping bag and tools behind and went up. just my guess. But isn't there an arrest technique involving the use of two axes, I believe? NO! That's only in Vertical Limit. Christ. Also, they would NOT have been carrying two tools AND and ice ax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Mac Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 The upside down V is probably the tracks of the snow blocks dug out from the cave. Simple as that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Male Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Eventually the third guy decided to move, probly bacause he was frezzing to death sitting still for so long. That theory would fly in the face of every other theory that says it's warmer and safer in your cave then venturing out in the cold. Are there any known cases of people leaving their cave to be found elsewhere, without an accident, and without digging a new cave? have you ever sat in a wet tent or a snowcave in freezing conditions for several days in a row? One body isn't enough warmth to keep a snowcave very warm, three maybe, but not just one. at some point it's either get moving and get your core temp up, or die in your sleep from hypothermia. Thanks for another useful point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randyfranklin Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Can somebody post a picture of the Y-shaped feature? I'm interested to know what it looked like. Also, agmorgan, that was a pretty astute observation that Y-symbols are used in topo maps to denote caves. Interesting stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHwildcats76 Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Post deleted by LHwildcats76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 who cares about the freaking Y shaped feature...it means nothing at this point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Mac Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Now the DF's are saying that what the stranded are delusional. I have found no basis, the climbers have explainable circumstances for leaving some gear. Now they are comparing these climbers to the idot who decided to leave his family down in the Rogue River area. Families you still should have reasonable hope, and my best wishes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bec Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 We really appreciate all the insight you guys can offer since you are climbers.We figure this is the best place to get good info... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeyore Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 The video being broadcast about 2 hours ago showed the SAR guy digging about 5 to 10 feet above what clearly was a /\, 15 to 20 feet on each leg. This hasn't been mentioned on any of the news coverage I've heard (even though they broadcast the video for at least 5 minutes continuously), and news of the empty cave come only 20 minutes later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randyfranklin Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Lambone, I would disagree on that. The Y-shape could be meant as an arrow for direction of travel, to note the placement of the existing snow cavel, to note the existence of a second snowcave, or as some other message to the rescuers, or it could be nothing significant. It is still worthy of discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
answer Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 But isn't there an arrest technique involving the use of two axes, I believe? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindy66 Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 to al it concerns, come on people , will you all go back and read carolyn james' post. .all of you go back and read . go to it , find it, read it.... i will enlighten you.In her post , its says the family of our guys comes to this forum and reads the posts.If you cannot say anything "good" then it would be best at this time to turn the key on your mouth.....sending all the prayers from arkansas, (kelly james was raised here).....come on SAR bring those guys off Hood..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Male Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 For all of the newbies or those just joining the conversation, PLESE RE-READ PREVIOUS POSTS. Most of you questions have already been answered. And no, East Coast hiker, they did not indicate S. Side would be their escape route in an emergency, they said they would descend the Cooper Spur directly beside the North Face. Speaking of reading previous posts.... Their original plan was to descend the south side and meet a ride at Timberline; the climbers' no-show there on Sunday triggered the initial search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsgirl Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Please don't flame me-I am only a hiker--not a climber, but here is my theory on this, FWIW. If I had to leave an injured party in the back country anywhere, I would mark the spot where I left the person so that it would be visible from the air. I think that is what the Y was about. Otherwise, how could the two guys who went for help ever hope to find the cave again? I am afraid that the help never came, and the 2 never returned, so the person left the cave, with only what he needed. Good vibes and prayers for a positive outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryland_moore Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 That was the plan on what route (S. Side)to descend if the climb went off without a hitch. They stated that in case of emergency, they would descend the Cooper Spur. Everyone would normally descend the S. Side to Timberline - that is the standard route to descend thr majority of routes on the mountain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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