Bigtree Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 I heard from someone whom I consider to be a reliable source last weekend that despite the well known policy of requiring climbers of Mt. Rainier to obtain coveted mid-summer climbing permits for all summit attempts, park officials lack the regulatory authority to enforce such requirements (i.e., their bluffing and in the event a climber were to thumb their nose at the requirement and decide to climb without a permit park officials cannot stop them). Does anyone with an understanding of the US National Parks regulatory scheme have any views on whether this is true or not? I'm also curious if the same holds true for National Forest areas such as Mt. Adams. BTW, I'm not interested in lectures or ethical debates about the issue - just curious about how such a potential enforcement gap could be allowed to exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 This is not true. Many park rangers can (and some actually will) issue citations for climbing, or backcountry camping, without the required permits. The Legal Authority for this comes from Title 36, the Code of Federal Regulations. 36 CFR 1.6 Part 7 authorizes park superintendents to create special regulations for certain recreational activities. At Mount Rainier this includes climbing and hiking on glaciers above the designated high camps, and backcountry camping. I don't think very many people actually do get citated (or worse) each year but it does happen. Those are facts only, I am also not interested in lectures or ethical debates! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
111 Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 I don't think very many people actually do get citated (or worse) each year but it does happen. citated? new one for Websters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigtree Posted June 1, 2006 Author Share Posted June 1, 2006 ...The Legal Authority for this comes from Title 36, the Code of Federal Regulations. 36 CFR 1.6 Part 7 authorizes park superintendents to create special regulations for certain recreational activities. At Mount Rainier this includes climbing and hiking on glaciers above the designated high camps, and backcountry camping... This is helpful information Duchess - thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 I don't think very many people actually do get citated (or worse) each year but it does happen. citated? new one for Websters! Citated is a perfectly cromulent word! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmatt Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 It embiggens the soul... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 ...The Legal Authority for this comes from Title 36, the Code of Federal Regulations. 36 CFR 1.6 Part 7 authorizes park superintendents to create special regulations for certain recreational activities. At Mount Rainier this includes climbing and hiking on glaciers above the designated high camps, and backcountry camping... This is helpful information Duchess - thanks. If that isn't enough info for you, send a PM to this guy. He'll set you straight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 I don't think very many people actually do get citated (or worse) each year but it does happen. citated? new one for Websters! Citated is a perfectly cromulent word! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knelson Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 I heard from someone whom I consider to be a reliable source last weekend that despite the well known policy of requiring climbers of Mt. Rainier to obtain coveted mid-summer climbing permits for all summit attempts, park officials lack the regulatory authority to enforce such requirements (i.e., their bluffing and in the event a climber were to thumb their nose at the requirement and decide to climb without a permit park officials cannot stop them). Does anyone with an understanding of the US National Parks regulatory scheme have any views on whether this is true or not? I'm also curious if the same holds true for National Forest areas such as Mt. Adams. BTW, I'm not interested in lectures or ethical debates about the issue - just curious about how such a potential enforcement gap could be allowed to exist. While not an expert, I believe there is a thread of truth... kinda... in what you were told. Perhaps. Maybe. You've got two forms of control on Rainier: climbing permits and camping permits. These are two totally different beasts. The "climbing" permits aren't coveted at all. Go to any ranger station that issues them, plunk down your $30 and you get one. Shoot... you can even go to the Rainier NP website, download a "climbing permit form", mail it in with the moola, and get your permit in the mail. Legally, I don't think the NPS can deny selling you a permit. This kind of ties in with what your friend was saying as far as the NPS having no ability to keep you from climbing the mountain. However, if you decide to climb without a permit, they can cite you. The camping permit is where the NPS CAN actually limit how many folks are on the mountain, and in what zones, and keep you from climbing the mountain. Those permits are the coveted ones. You can have your climbing permit in hand, but if all the quotas are filled in the camps and alpine zones, you're sunk. Oh sure... you can thumb your nose at the NPS, but they would have every right to cite and fine you and send you back down the mountain. Do people go up without camping permits? Sure. Do they get caught? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Do they get fined? I have no idea. While I'm not as familiar with NFS requirements, I think they also regulate strictly by camping permits. You don't need a permit to hike/climb in the Enchantments - unless you want to stay overnight. Adams' fees revolve around the legality of the NFS Parking Pass - it's just a fee paid to go above 7000' in the summer and has nothing really to do with camping or parking. There is no restriction on the number of people on Adams at one time... which is obvious some times. I'm guessing that thumbing your nose at that one gets you the same spanking as thumbing your nose at the parking pass. -kurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfreeburg Posted June 2, 2006 Share Posted June 2, 2006 I went up the Sulphide Glacier on Shuksan a few years back and got fined by a ranger for not having a permit. My buddy and I didn't get one at the ranger station because we thought there wouldn't be any left. We could have gone down and camped beneath the tree line (or something like that) and not been fined, but we just decided to just take the $50 fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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