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Denali Climbing FEE INCREASE = Nodder Elimination


faster_than_you

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They bitch and whine at the drop of a hat around here.

 

Another astute CC.COM poster child redefines bitching as someone points out a 500% fee increase?

Going from $200 to $500 isn't a 500% increase, it's a 150% increase.

Personally, I don't think the increase is going to fund anything new (like heli flights) just to pad the coffers. Of course, the price of gas has about doubled over the last couple of years, so their costs have gone up...

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They bitch and whine at the drop of a hat around here.

 

Another astute CC.COM poster child redefines bitching as someone points out a 500% fee increase?

Going from $200 to $500 isn't a 500% increase, it's a 150% increase.

 

Isn't going from $200 to $1000 a 500% increase? That's what the the NPS told the guide services in Feb. That post from the other forum came from one of the guides in Talkeetna.

 

The money isn't aimed at "padding" coffers. The proposal "would" be aimed to offset costs that are currently covered by the NPS. And it "aint" gas prices that driving up costs, it's the way the agency (and the public) view our activity.

 

But hey, as climbers we do a better job arguing amongst ourselves than organizing against a fee increase or even agreeing that fee increase of 150% is too much.

 

I can see the public meeting now. The NPS will put some alternatives on the table, and we climbers will be busy nit-picking each others responses.

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Isn't going from $200 to $1000 a 500% increase?

It's 400% increase. And since they are announcing a $500 fee, what does a mythical $1000 fee have to do with anything?

 

I can't imagine why opponents have difficulty gaining traction....

 

You again? grin.gif

 

If $200 is 100%, isn't $1000 5 times $200? confused.gif We need a math person?

 

As pointed out, they are suggesting a fee of 1k. Sun Tzu would recommend planning for all the possible outcomes.

 

But your mythical point is taken, the entire discussion revolves around what the Chief Ranger told a bunch of guide service owners last Feb. As conceded earlier in the post, the increase is just a "rumor" b/c there has been no "offical" announcement.

 

But hey, we've nothing better to do than to nit pick each other on cc.com. HCL.gif

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I read sometime back that the helicopters that had previously flown supplies to basecamp had been deployed to Iraq. The Army used to fly supplies to KAH and 14 camp for free as training - but now the NPS is having to fly the supplies in on the Lama - which has lead to a high increases in costs.

 

As for the costs and what they're for see my post below where costs are broken down.

 

I'll agree $500 is steep - but do you really think removing the entire NPS staff from Denali will result in a better experience? An average of 1200 people stomp up the WB every year... the route needs some sort of official presence - without one it would be a nightmare.

 

PS... regarding the post that faster_than_you quoted... I'm just going to say that the ANILCA point is BS. This is the same stupid argument that snowmachiners use so they can drive 60 mph across Denali National Park. Furthermore the fee increase does not target Alaskans - but visitors to Alaska. Argue the point logically since this issue affects climbers and could potentially spread across the country... not using some antiquated argument that reminds the country of how self centered Alaskans are when it comes to Federal money.

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PS... here's some data:

 

 

REPORT TO CONGRESS Analysis of Cost Recovery for High-altitude ...

http://www.americanalpineclub.cncdsl.com/docs/SAR_Final_Report_to_Congress.pdf

 

The table below summarizes the mountaineering program costs at Denali NP&P for the last three fiscal years. The bar graph on page five illustrates the volume of all kinds of recreation rescue incidents that occurred nationwide in the Park Service during the year 2000. The pie chart at the bottom of page five illustrates that 13 of the 175 national climbing incidents occurred at Denali NP&P.

 

Denali NP&P Mountaineering Operations Budget

 

FY2000

Mt. McKinley Base Budget

Personal services $307,600

Supplies/equipment 150,900

Helicopter 156,800

Climber Services 169,400

Military Support 129,000

NPS & Military SAR 348,000

TOTALS $1,261,700

 

FY1999

Mt. McKinley Base Budget

Personal services $271,200

Supplies/equipment 80,800

Helicopter 222,800

Climber Services 163,000

Military Support 127,700

NPS & Military SAR 218,800

TOTALS $1,084,300

 

FY1998

Mt. McKinley Base Budget

Personal services $253,100

Supplies/equipment 38,900

Helicopter 65,600

Climber Services 159,300

Military Support 126,400

NPS & Military SAR 527,700

TOTALS $1,271,000

 

Base Budget:

 

personal services costs for mountaineering rangers, administrative

support staff, training,

Lama high-altitude helicopter cost for mountaineering

support not related to rescues,

supplies, materials, equipment, utilities,

loss-of-life claim payments.

1 MEMORANDUM for the Washington Office and all Field Offices: March 29, 1940, From Arno B.

Cammerer, Director, National Park Service

Climber services: expenditures of fees collected to help cover cost of

providing education services,

processing/printing permits,

producing mountaineering guides, and

producing informational packets for climbers.

NPS Search and Rescue: volunteer salaries,

premium pay costs for Denali employees during SAR operations,

Lama rental and hourly usage costs,

emergency supplies

Military SAR Support: value of military support during SAR operations

Military Support: value of military support for setting up and demobilization

of base camps

 

The following explains the cost of the high-altitude helicopter and is not in addition to the above table:

 

High-altitude Helicopter (Lama) Program Funding Source

 

FY2000

Denali Park Base Budget: $156,800

NPS Search and Rescue: 190,000

TOTAL: $346,800

 

FY1999

Denali Park Base Budget: $222,800

NPS Search and Rescue: 103,200

TOTAL: $326,000

 

FY1998

Denali Park Base Budget: $ 65,600

NPS Search and Rescue: 206,200

TOTAL: $271,800

 

 

Denali Base Budget:

 

minimum contract cost not covered by SAR funding,

salary cost for NPS helicopter manager, mountaineering/resource

protection support not related to SAR,

rental of helicopter pad in Talkeetna

NPS Search and Rescue: volunteer salaries,

premium pay cost for Denali employees during SAR operations,

Lama rental and hourly usage cost during SAR operations,

emergency supplies

 

 

Also... in 2004 1275 climbers attempted Denali and 130 were Alaskans.

 

The other thing I found interesting was on this document:

 

Backcountry Operations

This year we conducted one spring snowmachine patrol, one hunting patrol to the Kichatna Spires and one patrol to McGonagall Pass. We also assisted the Northside operations with several hunting patrols. The mountaineering staff flew 42 hours of fixed wing aircraft, including flights over the park for hunting, mountaineering patrols and glacier training.

I wonder if expenses for monitoring hunters is considered part of the mountaineering budget since it is conducted by mountaineering staff?

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