Alex Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 couple of thoughts there are alot of ways you can go - some people "guide" by leading their friends friends up Mt Rainier for some cash - others get insurance, permits, and teach more involved classes. Leading someone up a climb is not what guiding is...you are a hired rope gun, simple as that. Guiding is teaching. If you choose to teach, and not just ropegun, and you have not guided commercially before for a well-established guide service, I suggest you do that for a few years before you try going it on your own. For the simple reason that you might not be as good a teacher as you think you are, you might not teach all/the correct skills that your clients might need, and you wont have anyone to turn to professionally with questions or to learn new techniques - both climbing and teaching. I am familar with the teaching programs for both AAIs, they are well thought out and meticulously planned, and have the benefit of having been tested in the field by many clients. You will need liability insurance of some sort if you teach. Its all good to get someone to pay you for climbing, but if they are not very good friends, or even if they are, you, as guide either formally or informally, are taking responsiblity for them and their training, and if something happens thats bad, they, or their remaining family could sue. This is a necessariy evil in guiding. I don't think that you can successfully skirt it. Chances are you will never have a problem in the hills, and it will all be fun. You could talk to Dunham or any of the local guide service owners about this aspect of it. WFR is a good start. Dont let it lapse, and make WEMT a goal. Last but not least - you wont make any money guiding, so you might want to consider doing something else for money, if money is one of your primary motivators in this. Again, experience in a successful guide service will give you the background for how much you can charge for what. I and many of my friends found framing (in Bellingham) to pay well enough and still affoard ample time for climbing, plus we didnt burn out on climbing, since we did it at our own speed and whenever we wanted, or not. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Fun idea, Michael, and you're smart for doing your research. I was in the business for several years (never an owner though) and there are good reasons why not everybody is doing it. a) liability. those waivers you make your people sign don't hold up if it is you that screws up. Also, insurance ain't cheap but maybe you can get it for a per/client basis and tack it on to their fee. In short, you can't screw up. b) permits....many of the cool places have restrictions on commercial use or require permits. The case of Rainier is extreme but it can be a problem elsewhere. c) competition...a lot of the bigger groups have the money, experience and gear to make it tough. d) it can be dangerous...I always treated whatever I was climbing as if I was free-soloing (even while placing gear, etc.) because the clients can't always be trusted to do stuff right. You have to constantly anticipate the absurd and that's where a lot of experience comes in. I've heard of guides being pull off routes, etc. and I have plenty of scary stories of my own. In short, it helps if you have eyes 360 degrees circling around your head the whole time...you can't imagine what people will do! The old guide's saying: "There are two types of clients: one is trying to kill himself, and the other is trying to kill you." e) guiding ain't like climbing with your buddies. Being a decent climber is important, but equally important is having the skills to teach and to keep your clients out of harm's way. You have to project leadership, confidence and a warm personality even when you're not in the mood. f) it will eat into your personal climbing time. It sounds great to be paid to go climbing, but when you're teaching knots and shouting encouragement to struggling people all day while your buddies are having a good time....it can be wearing by the end of the summer. g) the money isn't that good, unless you own RMI. It's a fun job, I suppose, if you don't have your own house or a family to support. h) In America, any schmoe can hang a shingle on their door and call themselves a guide service. Guide certification isn't mandatory but it's good training and you'll learn a bunch of tips from professionals. With or without the certification, you'd better know your stuff. It's one thing to do your own thing, but you've got innocent people who deserve to come back alive having had a good time. Any guide who's been around a while will tell you that many clients will seemingly turn their minds over to a guide and if you told them to jump into a bottomless crevasse, they'd do it without hesitation. You got to be so careful and aware and not make too many mistakes. It's a huge responsibility. i) it's hard to get started without experience. It's a bit of a paradox..guide services might not hire you if you don't have experience but there are few places to get experience. RMI trains their folks in their own style for their own purposes. I got started by leading many student outdoor trips (essentially an amateru guide service) while in college so that I had something attractive to offer when I started looking for guiding jobs. Maybe you could get on with a climbing school as an apprentice for a season or two and learn how it works and if you like it or not. I'm sure a few people started this way. I hope some of the above was useful. Good luck! - "Dwayner" P.S. As a professional guide, I NEVER accepted cash tips. Dinner and beer, yes. Cash, never...that's a Euro-dog tradition and below my professional style. I charge my fee, I do my work well, everyone's happy, and hopefully they'll come back for more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Setting yourself up as a guide, even in a casual type of sense, i.e. not actually starting a business, is opening you up to getting sued to the moon. At the very least, spend a couple hundred bucks and talk to a lawyer who is experienced with business/liability stuff, and have them help you put together some kind of waiver. Without starting a business, your clients, should you maim them and should they decide to sue you, will be able to take everything you have without the proper protection. It's damn unfortunate, but litigiousness seems to be a popular behaviour in America of late. If you take the time and spend the money to be an actual business, like an LLC, you can operate without risking your personal money and property if someone sues. The Doctor recommends that you read up on this stuff thoroughly (there's also a good article in a fairly recent issue of Outside about how guides are getting taken to the cleaners by suit-happy clients, and how much insurance costs for them) before getting yourself into inescapably deep legal and financial shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted September 4, 2002 Author Share Posted September 4, 2002 If you don't have any assets to be sued over, can you go to jail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 quote: Originally posted by michael_layton: If you don't have any assets to be sued over, can you go to jail? that's pretty unlikely. being poor and liable isn't generally a crime. but it could dog you for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 One indication of how absurd the guiding authorization process is in Oregon is that the state marine board is where you go to get your initial license to guide climbers. Not sure if this is the same in WA. Then you have to do battle with the USFS to make money on federal forest land legally. NPS would probably have similar issues. As others have stated, a rock-solid waiver and guiding insurance are basic necessities, as are intense knowledge of the routes you guide on, well below your skill level, though if you are considering this avenue you probably know all this already. Good luck to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 quote: Originally posted by michael_layton: If you don't have any assets to be sued over, can you go to jail? Depends on what the fuckup is that brings the suit, and what they manage to stick you with, probably. This is where it would be worth your while to spend the dough and talk to a lawyer, unpleasant as that may be. Q. What do you call 400 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A. A good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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