cross country boots

[thelawgoddess]

i want to try some cc and skating this winter. i know basically absolutely nothing about them. i wanted to know how boots size - like real normal shoes or do they get weird like ski boots? also, what is the difference with cc touring and skating? (meaning, what makes the boots better for one or the other?) thanks!

[Figger_Eight]

In a nutshell: you have 2 different set-ups.

 

Skate skiing has a motion similar to in-line skating. The skis are shorter and skinnier, and you need a groomed track. Skating is a heckuva a lot faster, and you need to skate up hills since the skis don't have scales on the bottom. Skate boots and bindings are specific to that discipline. They're made to be light weight and fast. The deal is you're stuck to skiing only where there are groomed trails, and it takes a bit more coordination.

 

Cross-country skiing covers anything from groomed trails (mini-trenches for the skis) to backcountry touring, and tele skiing on the far-end of the spectrum. You have a lot more variety in skis (waxless skis with scales/no edges, partial metal edges, waxless/metal edges, tele-skis with skins) depending on use. You can use system bindings like NNN BC or Salomon, or 3-pin bindings. XC is the way to go if you want to access the backcountry.

[dryad]

Skating on regular long XC skis is REALLY hard. Or maybe I'm just really uncoordinated.

 

Specifically as far as boots are concerned, skate boots are tall and usually have some plastic piece that wraps around the ankle for ankle support. XC boots are basically just hiking boots with either a flap or metal bar in the toe to attach to the binding.

 

If you want to get into XC skiing, bear in mind that people are constantly selling off used gear and it's often possible to ge a whole setup for $50 or less.

[Dave_Schuldt]

TLG, the best XC boots are old school 3 pin leather ones.

dryad, skating w/ xc gear IS hard.

Used gear is the way to go.

Waxless skis suck but waxing is a pain in the ass in this climate. I just deal with the frustrations of waxing 'cuz when you get it right it kicks ass.

[dryad]

I disagree on the wax/waxless thing. I say go waxless. Way less work. This climate is too warm for waxing. Often the temperature hovers right around or above freezing and the snow changes consistency every 5 minutes as you go around each bend. Unless you're a real old-school wax enthusiast, it's just not worth the effort to get the wax just right.

 

Regarding bindings... 3 pin presumably give you more control and are sorta cool in that you can decide to use your tele boots with them, which might be desirable under some rare circumstances. The NNN, Salomon, etc. bindings have the benefit of being really easy to get in and out of which is nice around here where often a section of snow is washed away by meltwater and you need to walk for like 20 ft until you get to the next snow. So whatever floats your dinghy.

 

When you first get started, just buy the cheapest crap used gear you can find, whatever it is. Then if you decide this is a fun activity, you can buy something better, and you'll have a better idea what the options are and what would be best for your specific purposes.

[willstrickland]

Let me weigh in here, since I have nothing else to do up here in the 6 month winter except XC, and we have a huge XC community and trail system.

 

3 pin boots are outdated shit. Skate skis are a little skinnier, and quite a bit shorter. The rule of thumb for length of regular XC skis is: Stand them on end in front of you and they should come to your wrist when you extend your arm over your head. Skate skis will be around 2ft shorter and about 1/2-2/3 the width.

 

Skating on classic gear is tough and a little awkward, but I do it to mix up the ski a little and also when on groomers while passing someone going in the other direction...you jump out of the trough and if you don't start skating, you gonna bust your ass. I also skate my classics on downhill turns and short uphills.

 

Skate boots and bindings are NOT specific to skating. I use the same boots and binding system on both my skate and classic skis, with a slightly different binding (same attachement though..basically a bar in the toe). The racing gear is obviously highly tweaked and specialized, but the attachment system is still the same.

 

You can ski in the classic style (i.e. stride) on skate gear. You are NOT stuck with only skiing the groomers, but it's not the best tool for the job. I regularly skate ski a 6 mile loop that has 4 miles groomed, then 2 miles of single track trough through trees. I skate the groomed section, stride the ungroomed. In some ways, the shorter length of the skates are better because of the treed sections.

 

Waxless skis (i.e. with "scales") still need waxing (glide wax), you just don't need to put kick wax on them. I wax my "waxless" skiis about every other week. In certain conditions, they are better than waxless. (As Dryad says above. In slightly slushy borderline freezing temps, they are probably the best choice). Waxing for racing is practically an art. It's amazing to watch the guys doing all this temp assessment and using combinations of different waxes, preparing several sets of skis waxed differently to be ready for potential condition changes before race time. The team up here is pretty competitive in the NCAA and seeing them race is awesome.

 

My classics are waxless. I've never seen a waxless skate ski.

 

Used is for sure the way to go for classic gear. And if the nordic community is big enough, for skate gear as well. I got a sweet skate set-up from one of the dudes on the Univ team that was used one season for $100. Got classic skis/bindings for $25 at Play it Again.

Edited September 23, 2004 by willstrickland

[thelawgoddess]

thanks for all the info so far. it's something i've been wanting to try for years now; just never have - mostly because i don't have the gear. but while i have a real job that pays real money i might as well spend it on some more gear. :-)

[bDubyaH]

the bases seem to be covered, but i have one more thing to add. i highly recommend that you not get the combi classic/skate sort of set up because really they are not very good for either. my $0.02

[Dave_Schuldt]

So TLG I take it your spending the winter here? The XC skiing near Seattle isn't to good. The best stuff is in central Oregon or central BC

Lets not forget the Methow.

Edited September 24, 2004 by Dave_Schuldt

[johndavidjr]

So what is best xc boot for light backpacking for non-extreme skiier?

[thelawgoddess]

So TLG I take it your spending the winter here?

 

unfortunately it looks like i will. not that seattle is so bad, but ... that's unrelated. i would definitely like to make a trip to the methow. have never been and hear it's pretty amazing. is there any skating up by snoqualmie pass?

[dryad]

is there any skating up by snoqualmie pass?

 

Yes. There's the Iron Horse Trail (flat as a pancake and perfect for your first time out), the Cabin Creek trails network including the first couple miles up Amabilis Mountain, and the Snoqualmie Nordic Center.

[jhamaker]

With the closing of the Swallow's Nest, there are two places in WA to go to troll for gear and ask questions. The store in Leavenworth (not Der Sportsmann) and *the* store in Methow. There are good x-c stores in Bend, OR.

 

binding systems:

NNN - groomed x-c (skate or classic) - small toe bar

SNS - groomed x-c (skate or classic) - small toe bar

SNS Profile - groomed skating - small toe bar, small arch bar

NNN/BC - groomed areas and logging rds, tele turns if you don't ever fall and your ski weights less than, say, a pound - bigger toe bar.

3-pin - same use as NNN/BC, but binding is more likely to stay attatched to the ski, flaring oversized plate, however, catches in icy ruts.

 

Boots: For skating you want light weight like a running shoe, but more imortantly you want comfortable ankle support. Some "combi" boots are suitable for recreational skating and classic. Just remove the plastic cuff for classic. I find the combi boots' extra ankle support nice for classic, esp at the beginning of the season when my ankles are weak.

 

Skis: For learning skating, any track ski will do - 15 cm shorter than your classic (under the wrist) lenth.

 

Poles: somewhere around nose height? I don't reccomend tiny racing baskets, because, unless you do all your skiing at the Methow, you will often plunge your baskets beneath into unconsolidated snow.

 

Your first year, poles may break, baskets will break and bindings may rip out of skis. You will certainly trash the edges and probably the basses of your skis. Don't spend a lot of money untill you know excactly what you want. Boots, however, tend to hold up pretty well.

 

 

 

Unless you fall in to a great deal on used stuff, I would reccomend renting at one of the passes, or better, one of the stores. Salomon / SNS fits me best. Boot fit is critical. If you spend new, spend on boots.

[Dave_Schuldt]

The Snoqualmie Nordic Center has nicley groomed trails and nice places to explore of the tarcks. There are eaven some fun little runs you can do. Try going up near Silver Peak.

 

Back to the wax vs waxless debate..

Wax is WAY better when it's cold.

Wax is better when it's above freezing.

Wax is a nightmare at freezing.

Wax is better when it's icey.

People stare at you when your waxing your skis. "Is that some new technology?" they ask.

Above freezing wax makes a sticky mess.

Metal edges are nice for control on the downhills.

Try to get some old school bamboo poles, way stronger than the new ones plus they will match your wool knickers and sweater.

[RichardKorry]

my $0.02...

 

1. rent gear so you have reasonably good gear to try. then you can see what you like before buying.

2. take a lesson (actually lots of them). xc skiing is very technique intensive. Once you begin to dial in the technique it becomes so much more fun and much less of a struggle.

3. skating is harder at first to learn than classic but ultimately class (aka diagonal or kick-n-glide) requires better technique.

[Geek_the_Greek]

I just noticed this thread, and thought I should add one thing.

 

Poles are a super-important part of xc skiing, both skating or classic, way more of a "technical" item than for downhill or tele skiing. They are sized really big. Back when I was racing in high school, they told us chin height for classic, forehead height for skating (measured on dry ground, I think, not planted in the snow). This seems huge, but trust me, it helps immensely with keeping momentum.

[dryad]

Chin-height poles? Holy crap, that's long! I was always told armpit-height.

 

Hmmm... Maybe I should get me some new poles now.