scott_harpell Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Scott, somehow I missed your reply to this posting of mine earlier. Do you concur that living a life filled with Christian qualities is more important than debating points about doctrine? I'd love to hear how YOU decide what qualities to focus on in your Christian life. Most people take their direction from their local religious leaders who tell them to tithe, come together for fellowship, put money in the collection plate, love their neighbors, love Jesus, have faith, allow monthly electronic funds transfers from their checking accounts, and go to war with peace of mind when it's their time. Since you stated earlier that you stand alone and worship as the 1st Century Christians did, I'd love to hear how your prioritize your Christian duties, and what you base that on. With all due respect, Thinker O.K. My take on this (granted it is not orthodoxy, but what is?) is that you are not saved through works, but through faith alone. This is the only religion where this is true. Works are meant to glorify God and to help reach a sense of enlightenment through simplification of one's life. I feel that living my life with my friends (whomever they may be) is the only way to fly. Christ dined with sinners, talked with prostitutes and embraced tax collectors, women, children and anyone else who would listen. That is my thing. It is not about actions so much as what is going on in one's heart. Some people find drinking evil. Mabe for them it has that effect, but I find that it is a great way to loosen up and let people see who you really are without the glimmering facade. Really, I feel that the greatest way for people to understand your position is through your actions. I am not stating that I am any better than anyone else, but I feel that in my heart, I try to be like Christ who I model my life after. God cares not whether you suceed in being a holy man... In fact, he states very plainly that it is impossible for us. What he does care about is that we try and believe that no matter how bad our transgressions, the birth and death of Christ pays pennance for all. Again, it is a very different theology where works are independant of one's salvation and that is one of the reasons that I am attracted to it. Quote
Thinker Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Scott, somehow I missed your reply to this posting of mine earlier. Do you concur that living a life filled with Christian qualities is more important than debating points about doctrine? I'd love to hear how YOU decide what qualities to focus on in your Christian life. Most people take their direction from their local religious leaders who tell them to tithe, come together for fellowship, put money in the collection plate, love their neighbors, love Jesus, have faith, allow monthly electronic funds transfers from their checking accounts, and go to war with peace of mind when it's their time. Since you stated earlier that you stand alone and worship as the 1st Century Christians did, I'd love to hear how your prioritize your Christian duties, and what you base that on. With all due respect, Thinker O.K. My take on this (granted it is not orthodoxy, but what is?) is that you are not saved through works, but through faith alone. This is the only religion where this is true. Works are meant to glorify God and to help reach a sense of enlightenment through simplification of one's life. I feel that living my life with my friends (whomever they may be) is the only way to fly. Christ dined with sinners, talked with prostitutes and embraced tax collectors, women, children and anyone else who would listen. That is my thing. It is not about actions so much as what is going on in one's heart. Some people find drinking evil. Mabe for them it has that effect, but I find that it is a great way to loosen up and let people see who you really are without the glimmering facade. Really, I feel that the greatest way for people to understand your position is through your actions. I am not stating that I am any better than anyone else, but I feel that in my heart, I try to be like Christ who I model my life after. God cares not whether you suceed in being a holy man... In fact, he states very plainly that it is impossible for us. What he does care about is that we try and believe that no matter how bad our transgressions, the birth and death of Christ pays pennance for all. Again, it is a very different theology where works are independant of one's salvation and that is one of the reasons that I am attracted to it. Hmmmm....that sounds very much like many of the modern day interdenominational church sermons I've heard....and definitely NOT first century. So do you have a code of conduct that you recommend to new Christians? Quote
Rick_Sharpless Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Actually Scott's explanation of "justification through faith" is classic 1st Century (Pauls letter to the Romans) - also Augustinian (came a little later). But . . . to bring back some past thread drift: Advanced humans will not arise in Georgia. The raw material for further evolution may be in short supply. If the Georgia business community has any cojones - which remains to be seen - they will squelch this "creation science" voodoo real quick - as happened in Kansas ( I think Boeing - for example - and Garmin - passed Kansas politicos the word that about 50,000 jobs might just leave unless . . .). Those who know better need to stand up on their hind legs when this kind of thing comes along and play hard, dirty and for keeps with the christian right - when they start trying to take over the educational agenda the gloves need to come off. Just because we live in the south does not mean we need to operate at the Deliverance level. Quote
scott_harpell Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 As for a code of conduct, I would reccomend the teachings of Jesus. They are what I try to base my entire philosophy on. Granted it is necessary to understand the workings of the Jewish tradition as well considering that many of Jesus' speaches were directed to Jews and carried a Jewish context. As far as being less first century, I am not sure what you are addressing specifically, but the major difference I see in myself is that I have no problem being with non-Christians; In fact, I prefer it. If you are adressing my slvation ethic, I assure you 90% of it is based on Jesus' sayings and the rest based on my interpretation. Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ...Some of the most important quotes per salvation. Quote
Thinker Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 No, where I don't understand you is the seeming rejection of the need for Christians to live a life based on Christian qualities. The way I read your statement is this: It doesn't matter what wrong things I do, how many times I do them, or how many times I plan on doing them in the future. As long as I ask for forgiveness, all is good and I'll be saved. Take fornication as an example, because it's been one of the most difficult ones to deal with throughout the history of the Christian church. It's well documented (if you consider the Bible documentation...and I think it's a safe assumption that you do) that the 1st century congregation dealt with such matters routinely. Also, let's assume for a moment that Paul echos the sentiments of Jesus as he tries to take care of the infant church after Jesus' death. Paul talked about fornication over and over in his letters to the congregations. 1 Corinthians 5:1-6 1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one [of you] hath his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, 4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 9 I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; 10 not at all [meaning] with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: 11 but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. 12 For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Put away the wicked man from among yourselves. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God. 13...But the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body: 14 and God both raised the Lord, and will raise up as through his power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid. 16 Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; 20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body. 1 Corinthians 10:6-14 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us make trial of the Lord, as some of them made trial, and perished by the serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it. 14 Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. To the Galatian congregation Paul wrote: Ch 5: 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, 21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. 24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof. 25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. 26 Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another. ************** (as I'm sure you're aware, this is just a fraction of the references to fornication in the NT.) Paul, and others go on and on about this topic and others regarding the necessity to couple a real effort to lead a Christian life to the faith required for salvation. I am, of course, aware that the NT supports forgiveness for sins like this....but THE big question arises: How much is too much? At what point does it become hypocrisy (The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness. source: dictionary.com)? Gal 5:21 gives us a clue to what Paul thought when he says: "that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (The dictionary.com defintion of hypocricsy also, ironically, contains the word 'practice'.) So what constitues 'practicing' sin? Dictionary.com defines practice as: 1 To do or perform habitually or customarily; make a habit of: practices courtesy in social situations. 2 To do or perform (something) repeatedly in order to acquire or polish a skill: practice a dance step. 3 To give lessons or repeated instructions to; drill: practiced the students in handwriting. 4 To work at, especially as a profession: practice law. 5 To carry out in action; observe: practices a religion piously. So, it would seem to me, that for one to genuinely be able call himself a Christian, he would NOT be practicing fornication (or any of the other works of the flesh cited by Paul.) And as I said in an earlier post, I've only met a handful of people who I feel pursue a truly Christian life. So what about the other 'Christians'? If they rationalize away their wicked behavior and continue it, then they are hypocrites in the fullest sense of the word. Now, if you would have told me that you believe in a "Christianity that's been updated for a modern world" that would be a whole different issue. But I found it especially interesting that you said you feel you're pursuing a brand of Christianity very close to that of the 1st century church. And, as I said in my earlier post, I don't know a single thing about you and your lifestyle. But if you DO practice any of the works of the flesh, then I think you need to reconsider a few of your basic premises. Nobody who 'practices' sin can command Christian respect until they repent and discontinue the wrong actions. What's your take on that? (I don't typically go around trying to point out things that will overload the average "Christian's" mind, but since you've been so vocal here, and knowing how thick skinned you can bein the spray forum in general, I thought you could probably take it and, more importantly, possibly provide me with a few new insights.) PS, did you ever find a copy of the Q gospel for me? I've edited the post a few times to correct citations, add sources, correct spelling and spacing, but have made no substantial changes to the text. Quote
Stonehead Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 (edited) The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak... Seriously though, have you read the work of Elaine Pagels concerning the Gnostic Gospels found at Nag Hammadi? Radical but enlightening. Edited February 5, 2004 by Stonehead Quote
scott_harpell Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 No, where I don't understand you is the seeming rejection of the need for Christians to live a life based on Christian qualities. The way I read your statement is this: It doesn't matter what wrong things I do, how many times I do them, or how many times I plan on doing them in the future. As long as I ask for forgiveness, all is good and I'll be saved. That is exactly correct. As for transgressions, we are too attempt to refrain from actions which may hurt the heart of God. Things which displeases him. THey are not required for salvation, that is a gift. Someone who beleives that God has saved him should love God and feel bad when they do something that displeases him. So, yes fornication is wrong, but no, you will not have your 'pass' revoked so-to-speak. Quote
Dru Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! Yeah, but if only they'd had Jack Daniels he would not have had to bib wine Quote
scott_harpell Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 So what about the other 'Christians'? If they rationalize away their wicked behavior and continue it, then they are hypocrites in the fullest sense of the word. I don't think the majority would rationalize it, nor do I. I feel bad about the things I do wrong and the hurt I do to God, but my salvation is secure. That is why they play amazing grace so damn much; because it really does put it all in perspective. We are wretches, but we are saved through grace, not works. Quote
cracked Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 But Scott, the concept of Grace was originally that God chooses beforehand who will be saved and who will not. BUT, if you displease Him, He might change his mind, and put you on the 'not saved' list. Likewise, if you were originally not on the list, and lead your life to please God, He might reconsider and save you after all. So I've got two questions: 1. Why are you so sure you'll be saved though you sin, and 2. Being less bad is better than being more bad. Lest God take you off the saved list, shouldn't try to please Him? Quote
scott_harpell Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 But Scott, the concept of Grace was originally that God chooses beforehand who will be saved and who will not. BUT, if you displease Him, He might change his mind, and put you on the 'not saved' list. Likewise, if you were originally not on the list, and lead your life to please God, He might reconsider and save you after all. So I've got two questions: 1. Why are you so sure you'll be saved though you sin, and 2. Being less bad is better than being more bad. Lest God take you off the saved list, shouldn't try to please Him? Your theology is not Christian. It is more closely aligned to Mormonism. This is what Jesus did with sinners. But hey we are all sinners. Paul, I suggest you re-read my posts on a faith-based salvation. Luke 15 2But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them." Quote
Thinker Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 No, where I don't understand you is the seeming rejection of the need for Christians to live a life based on Christian qualities. The way I read your statement is this: It doesn't matter what wrong things I do, how many times I do them, or how many times I plan on doing them in the future. As long as I ask for forgiveness, all is good and I'll be saved. That is exactly correct. As for transgressions, we are too attempt to refrain from actions which may hurt the heart of God. Things which displeases him. THey are not required for salvation, that is a gift. Someone who beleives that God has saved him should love God and feel bad when they do something that displeases him. So, yes fornication is wrong, but no, you will not have your 'pass' revoked so-to-speak. Well then, in my opinion, you are NOT practicing Christianity in a form ANYTHING like that which was being practiced by 1st century christians. Paul advocated excomunnicating those who practiced sin (i.e. those refused to discontinue the wrong behaviour), and ensured that it was done. Your version actually seems like a very modern version of Christianity to me. How do you justify your statement about not having your pass revoked with this: Galations 5 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, 21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Quote
scott_harpell Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Christ did call the sinners to repentance, but it is not a prerequisite for salvation. As for the scripture you quoted. There are two meanings for the Kingdom of God. One is the traditional sense: in heaven. The other is in the hearts of his people. Therefore, if you have your hearts filled with these sins and are consumed by them, Christ cannot reside in your heart. Quote
scott_harpell Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Luke 9:62 Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God." This certainly seems to imply that the work done for the Kingdom is to be done here on earth. Luke 10:9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.' Luke 11:20 But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you. here is another 18Then Jesus asked, "What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to? 19It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air perched in its branches." 20Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[1] of flour until it worked all through the dough." Quote
Blake Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Major compliments to Scott and Thinker for conducting a rational and positive and polite discussion here. Definitely some deep-level spraying. Quote
Thinker Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Thanks Blake. This discussion has now apparently morphed into Christianity's classic circular argument about whether humans are saved by faith alone, works alone, or some combination of the two. Volumes upon volumes have been written on the subject, and I can not profess to understand the intricacies of them. I do however have an opinion about the issue that I would like to present before I take my leave of this circular argument. In my opinion, it sounds absurd to objective observers when a Christian claims that he is saved no matter what wrong things he does, how many times he does them, or how many times he plans to do them in the future. Whether that 'wrong' thing is something as simple as repeated drunkenness or someting as serious as murder (both of which are repeatedly condemned in the New Testament). Granted, under the Christian faith there is the provision for repentance and forgiveness. However, if a person who professes to be Christian truly has an active Christian faith, then his life will reflect it in general. He will not be living with his girlfriend (commiting fornication), will not be a serial murderer, and will not lie, steal or cheat....if that faith is true. If it is a false faith, then there's no telling what the person may do. Again, in my opinion, this relatively modern development in Christianity has allowed some of the most aggregious religious, political, and social attrocities to occur all over the world. With this attitude/belief/philosophy, there is absolutely no responsibility or accountability for one's actions. It seems all to convenient, to me, to separate faith from works. I can't help but feel that they were integrally associated in the original version of this religious philosophy, and that the reintegration of them would make for more healthy families, communities, and world relations. But hey, I'm NOT a religious scholar and will never know for sure the way it was truly originally intended. So, with that, I will take my leave of this part of the discussion. If I had been able to anticipate it would end in this classic argument, I'd have not pursued it so doggedly. I do appreciate the relative respect shown by all involved; emotions often run high and cause some interesting reactions in discussions of this nature. I'm actually very glad that I don't have an emotional or spiritual stake in this issue, as I renounced Christianity many years ago. I do still find it a fascinating subject in an academic sense. Scott, I look forward to having more beers with you at a Pub Club someday. Quote
scott_harpell Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 With this attitude/belief/philosophy, there is absolutely no responsibility or accountability for one's actions. but this is not true. The accountability come's from one's heart and one's respect for God. Where an agnostic might cite Lock saying that we comprimise for security, The Christian is to do good to honor God. This is FAR from the mainstream logic I know. You are expecting that we must get something tangible in return for our good deeds. That is what makes it so hard. Salvation is yours if you want it, but righteousness is something that must come out of a desire to please God and seek to avopid dishonoring him. Quote
Thinker Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 I wonder if Jeebus nailed as many babes as Joseph Smith! That guy was a machine! Scott said: Probably not. As a devout Jew, I would assume that he remained chaste till death. Thinker said: I beg to differ. As a devout Jew, marriage would have been of extreme social and religious importance for Jesus. In order for the man Jesus to carry any respect, i.e. have any basis for 'preaching' and teaching, he would have had to have been married. There is a growing number of scholars who believe that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene, and that she was the holy grail...the one Jesus meant to pass the church on to. Peter was extremely jealous of Mary Magdalene (this fact is supported in the scriputes you have today), and the theory goes that he worked hard to exclude her from the church after Jesus' death. Peter was supposedly the first Pope (and most likely the leader of the Christian church after Jesus' death), and subsequent Popes worked very hard to remove all evidence of Jesus' marriage to MM from the scriptures. In addition, they rewrote the scriptures to subjugate women in the church, and in society in general....a very wise political move. I wanted to bring this topic back up, as it's quite provocative. I dug out a couple of websites that provide a fairly comprehensive presentation of the evidence for Jesus being married. It's quite the read if you're curious about it. http://www.grailchurch.org/marriedjesus.htm http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36328 And a little info about the history of Mary Magdalene. http://www.thewhitemoon.com/mary/magdalene.html#SM Seems Leonardo DaVinci may have been a fan of MM. Recent restorations of his 'The Last Supper' indicate the person seated next to Jesus may have actually been Mary Magdalene, NOT Peter....in any case, worth a look if you like art or are intrigued by that old artistic trickster, Leonardo DaVinci. http://www.lisashea.com/hobbies/art/lastsupper.html (I really don't normally stay up this late to spray, but I'm in some pretty severe pain currently, despite the Vicodin....can't sleep) Quote
Bug Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Just a few suggestions here. I do not mean to speak for Scott who is doing well on his own. First, a very clear treatment of the question of law vs good works is in Romans chapters 1-12. Second, Dietrick Bonhoffer (sp?) was a catholic priest in Germany during WWII. He took part in and may have master-minded a nearly successful assassination attempt on Hitler. He justified his action based on his Chiristian faith using his theory of the 'five mandates' and the 'ultima ratio'. The five mandates are Family, Church, State, Friends, and Marriage. In normal times, all of the mandates overlap a little bit and to varying degrees. But when one of the mandates steps way over the line and overwhelms one or all of the other mandates, the 'Ultima Ratio" must be enacted to bring the mandates back into balance. The Ultima Ratio is not to be taken lightly but smaller less intrusive actions are needed from time to time to help keep the mandates separate and healthy. These smaller actions must be according to one's own concscience which should be excercised only after much reflection and prayer. Sometimes, this would include consultation with a leader of some type (church or state or family) but often, these are small acts that would be inappropriate to bring other people in on. So you are left to figure it out by yourself according to your own abilities and relationship with God. Another aspect of this is that to love someone does not always leave that person in their comfort zone. Sometimes, the right thing to do is not easy, fun, or painless and we need someone who is willing to risk our friendship to help us do what is best for us. To say that "The Bible says X. Therefor you must always do Y" is a gross misinterpretation of Jesus' teachings. He spoke out for the actions of the heart vs actions according to any set code. Quote
Stonehead Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 Nice work on hijacking this thread, 180 degrees from its original intent. Also nice work on the covert proselytizing. Can't pass up the chance to speak at the pulpit, eh? Quote
Dru Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 it should be noted that the principles of natural selection do not apply just to animals but are currently being used to solve math problems and generate algorithms more effectively than by programming them. Quote
Dru Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 how did snakes evolve? i guess in georgia they are taught they evolved from the serpent in the garden? Quote
RobBob Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 See what we get without trask? Spray turns into cc.com bible study. Quote
catbirdseat Posted February 5, 2004 Posted February 5, 2004 (edited) Christ Almighty, it can't get worse than this. Hey, where the heck is Johnny_Destiny, anyway? Edited February 5, 2004 by catbirdseat Quote
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