simu-climbing techniques

[bubblebutt]

I was with a beginner the other day doing a route that required sinu-climbing and although I told him the basics , i.e. we'll move toghther with running belays, I realized that I'd never really thought about communications during sinu-climbing between climbers , stopping to clean gear, how many pieces etc and he has more questions than I had a ready answer for. Anybody with more experience at simu-climbing an alpine ridge than I got a good list of simu-climbing does and don't. Concept is easy but exection little more difficult.

[lummox]

bubblebutt said:

a good list of simu-climbing does and don't

do: climb with someone you trust.

dont: fall or knock rocks loose.

[forrest_m]

do:

do a search on cascade climbers for simulclimbing to read the previous discussions on this topic

 

tie in short so that you are ~100 feet apart to reduce rope drag and facilitate communication

 

carry a larger than normal rack (extra small pieces don't weigh much) so that you can lead longer pitches

 

stop to belay *after* a hard section (instead of before) - leading through it (as long as the rope is tight) you are as well protected as with a belay, but you don't want the second to fall and pull the leader off. with the hard bit below you, you can continue simulclimbing without having to waste time changing "modes".

 

esp. on ridges, take advantage of natural pro, i.e. weaving back and forth around towers and such

 

dont:

fall

 

lead while leaving your newbie buddy to follow. the person less likely to fall should climb second, as it is relatively easy to hold a leader fall while simuling but very hard to hold a real second fall. thus, the leader, even if of lesser ability, must still be efficient at route finding and placing gear, or the system doesn't work too well.

 

 

[bubblebutt]

Thanks, just what I was looking for, good stuff.

[cluck]

Another trick is to place a Petzl Tibloc after difficult pitch to protect the second instead of stopping to belay. The idea is that the Tibloc will allow the rope to pass as the leader climbs but will lock off if the second falls (hopefully sparing the leader from having to catch the fall).

 

What about simul-climbing with more than 2 people on a rope?

[cluck]

.... of course, if you follow the directions above and search for simulclimbing, you will find the Tibloc technique already explained....

Simulclimbing Do's and Don'ts

[russ]

do (re-emphasized): bring LOTS of runners. for me they always seem to be the limiting factor.

[Alpinfox]

Anyone ever taken a fall on a tibloc attached to an intermediate pro piece while simul-climbing?

 

Rope damage?

 

I've seen a tibloc rip up a sheath on a rope while being used as an ascender... Fortunately it wasn't me that did it and it wasn't my rope.

 

I've placed a tibloc on a piece while simulclimbing (twice I think) but the second didn't fall. Didn't get to test the idea, Darn!

 

[Mer]

Yup, I have, simul-climbing on Slesse. Tibloc was on equalized pieces to limit movement, I was belaying with a gri-gri, and trailing rope behind. The leader knew I was coming off, I knew I was coming off, there was no damage to the sheath. There's a bunch of info on the Gripped BB about the setup we were using. I'd use the setup again --the only thing I'd change is the weight of the damn pack that pulled me off the moves, dadgummit.

[catbirdseat]

The Tibloc shouldn't damage the rope because if the second falls, unless it is some sort of pendulum fall, there shouldn't be any slack in the rope and there will be little dynamic loading. If the leader falls, of course, the Tibloc doesn't hold the fall, the weight of the follower does.

[lI1|1!]

catbirdseat said:

The Tibloc shouldn't damage the rope because if the second falls, unless it is some sort of pendulum fall, there shouldn't be any slack in the rope and there will be little dynamic loading. If the leader falls, of course, the Tibloc doesn't hold the fall, the weight of the follower does.

 

not to jump on your case and all, but to jump on your case if i may, to say there shouldn't be any slack in the rope sounds a little like a perfect world situation. my experience with simulclimbing is the follower can't always go through moves at precicely the same speed as the leader (and often may move ahead creating a little slack to give the leader enough rope for his moves). so i think a little slack could easily be in the system, although hopefully not more than 20 feet or say at most i guess. anyway, a falling body speeds up pretty quick so can't even 10 feet generate a descent yank? i have a tibloc and it pretty damn pointy looking. anybody else?

[iain]

For what it's worth, Petzl provides drop-test data on the Tibloc. For an 80kg mass (your typical climber, I suppose) taking a factor 1, the device completely cuts 8mm cord, but no failure on high stretch 9mm or greater. It is marketed for 8-11mm ropes

 

Slow pull tests on the Tibloc (to sheath failure):

8mm - 4.9kN

9mm - 6.5kN

11mm - 5.3kN

 

Falls generating forces of this magnitude in simul-climbing are conceivable if there is slack. This data doesn't say when the rope will snap, but will tell you when it is well on its way to failure.

[ken4ord]

The way I look at it you shouldn't be simu-ing unless you are completely sure you and your partner(s) can solo the terrain you are on. I look at simu-ing as a method to get me and my partner(s) to the hard sections where we want to belay without having to coil up the rope, or put it in the pack, whatever just to save time. I have to check that link that somebody posted on using the Tibloc, to me it seems sort of stupid, risking damage to your rope. Maybe work well one time, but even just ascending a rope with one of those things does damage. The do and don't are simple.

Do: climb in a safe manner and stay on

Don't: fall.

[catbirdseat]

lI1|1! said:

catbirdseat said:

The Tibloc shouldn't damage the rope because if the second falls, unless it is some sort of pendulum fall, there shouldn't be any slack in the rope and there will be little dynamic loading. If the leader falls, of course, the Tibloc doesn't hold the fall, the weight of the follower does.

 

not to jump on your case and all, but to jump on your case if i may, to say there shouldn't be any slack in the rope sounds a little like a perfect world situation. my experience with simulclimbing is the follower can't always go through moves at precicely the same speed as the leader (and often may move ahead creating a little slack to give the leader enough rope for his moves). so i think a little slack could easily be in the system, although hopefully not more than 20 feet or say at most i guess. anyway, a falling body speeds up pretty quick so can't even 10 feet generate a descent yank? i have a tibloc and it pretty damn pointy looking. anybody else?

You have a valid point. There likely would some slack, but I would hope not more than a couple feet. I suppose it could be as much as 10 ft. If you set a Tibloc, you know the second has some hard moves coming up. I would imagine you could make an extra effort to make sure no slack develops until he is past the move.