Dru Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 the cave is 10 feet off the ground, and at the lip he "caught a rope thrown to him and clipped into it, then continued up a 13c face above". Akira is a hard boulder problem taped onto a sport route for the sole purpose of claiming thje Worlds Hardest Route. its like doing a sit start to Chain Reaction to bump the grade up these new 15as are all legitimate routes, and guess what, aside from Orujo with fake hold, all are natural, take that Fred Drillmeister Rouhling! Maybe he should take up comp routesetting if he wants to sculpt hard contrived problems and gfraft them onto routes. Quote
erik Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 drilled sport routes are a1 did i mention that yet? Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 erik said: drilled sport routes are a1 did i mention that yet? Yeah, and Dr. Flash Amazing explained why you were wrong. If you wanna slander drilled sport routes, awesome, do so with gusto. But please, slander them correctly. Saying they're A1 sounds real cute, but it's really not an accurate description. Quote
erik Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 dfa they are aid articficial means were used to gain advantage. to gain altitude, to gain ascension. you are wring my friend, but i bet we can agree to disagree!? that or trask will be down later to make you agree! thanks for caring! Quote
Dru Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 they are A0, like pulling on a draw. is this called "freedom free" now? Quote
Szyjakowski Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Really they are not aid but merely a way of CHEATING....Chipping IS WRONG....CLIMB it natural or Let someone else try like sharma.... of course he's climbed some chipped routes too.....you sporto freaks just keep your manufacturing at the gym... +n wankers Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Dru said: they are A0, like pulling on a draw. is this called "freedom free" now? Sorry, but half-pad two-finger pockets (or however big the chipper chipped them) are very much harder to grab than a big aluminum handle. There's a critical distinction between pulling on holds (artificial or not) using your muskles and hanging in your harness and/or standing in aiders. Erik, if you're going to try and tell the Doctor that the Pioneer Route is as hard as Kings of Rap (or some other chip-dependent route), you're loopy. And while we're at it, are pinned-out cracks aid also? That'd make Lynn Hill's send of The Nose aid, along with goodness knows how many other hard crack routes that've been freed subsequent to their pin-scarring. Viva el sport vs. trad battlecage! Quote
erik Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 dfa the difference is that the chipped routes were done intentionally so that a person(the chipper) can do something(free climb) so that their ego is momentarily fullfilled. when people were pounding pins their intentions was to summit in any means possible... damn phone call, ruined my train of thought Quote
Dru Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 "Sorry, but half-pad two-finger pockets (or however big the chipper chipped them) are very much harder to grab than a big aluminum handle." Dumb argument. Both artificial. Or are you arguing for a A3 rating like for long string of bathooks? Nailing only incidentally scars the rock. Like climbing on quarried rock, it is chipping only in the sense it is human-altered, not in the sense of HOLD MANUFACTURED TO MAKE CLIMBING EASIER. But the Nose IS chipped due to stupid Jardine traverse, which is why only sporto like Yuji, and crackhead like Scott Burke, will try to free it. According to Alex Huber, because it uses chipped holds, it has not yet been free climbed. I say he's right. Lynn Hills ascent was impressive but "free", naw. Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 erik said: dfa the difference is that the chipped routes were done intentionally so that a person(the chipper) can do something(free climb) so that their ego is momentarily fullfilled. when people were pounding pins their intentions was to summit in any means possible... damn phone call, ruined my train of thought So, pounding pins in order to summit (must summit to satisfy the ego!) is OK, even if it does leave permanent gaping holes in the rock. Chipping holds on a route in order to finish it (must send and satisfy the ego!) is not OK, because it leaves gaping holes in the rock. Got it. Thanks! PS - Smash your telephone! Quote
Szyjakowski Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Wasn't Phoenix climbed via pin scars too??? And sphinx crack in colorade...that thing is totally aid....Aggghhhh....is any old school aid crack free climbed............. Quote
Dru Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Dr_Flash_Amazing said: So, pounding pins in order to summit (must summit to satisfy the ego!) is OK, even if it does leave permanent gaping holes in the rock. Chipping holds on a route in order to finish it (must send and satisfy the ego!) is not OK, because it leaves gaping holes in the rock. Got it. Thanks! aid climbing free climbing different games diffferent rules rock damage = ok for aid not ok for free if you wanna damage rock or use chipped holds then dont pretend you are free climber is this argument circular enough yet? Quote
iain Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Phoenix has been freed? I consider that a difficult aid route even today. Next to License to Bolt right? Quote
erik Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 intent dfa, it is all about intent... most people do not hammer pins(in 98% of the time) with the intent to free climb it. chipped sport routes intent is to free it...not aid it. Quote
Dru Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Szyjakowski said: Wasn't Phoenix climbed via pin scars too??? And sphinx crack in colorade...that thing is totally aid....Aggghhhh....is any old school aid crack free climbed............. phoenix was never nailed it was where jardine practiced hangdogging on friends until he sent sphinx crack never nailed either but was intentiionally created shaped dynamite charge colorado school of mines maybe climbing sphinx crack is buildering. Quote
Szyjakowski Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Yeah I thought so on the Phoenix and Sphinx (I knew CSofM created back in the early 1900's). I would agree it's definitely like-buildering...but i would also have to say that using dynamite is a form of aid. But then were the culprits climbers......or merely nerds... Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Dru said: "Sorry, but half-pad two-finger pockets (or however big the chipper chipped them) are very much harder to grab than a big aluminum handle." Dumb argument. Both artificial. Or are you arguing for a A3 rating like for long string of bathooks? Perhaps you're missing the point, which is not whether or not they are both artificial, which they clearly are, but rather the nature of the climbing is entirely different. A3 is hard in a much different way than 5.12 is hard, right? Because with aid climbing you are having to be sneaky and tricky and crafty with the little hooks and smashy coppery guys and bad gear and whatnot, but ... you're hanging in a harness and standing in aiders, and the gear's doing the physical part for you (mostly). Chipped 5.whatever is still as physically demanding as natural 5.whatever, and in any case far more physically demanding than A-whatever. So no, it's not like hard aid; you're not going to zipper the pitch if you fall, and the difficulties are physical rather than psychological. Nailing only incidentally scars the rock. Like climbing on quarried rock, it is chipping only in the sense it is human-altered, not in the sense of HOLD MANUFACTURED TO MAKE CLIMBING EASIER. But aren't people busting out the pins and aiders because they can't free the moves? I.e. "to make climbing easier"? Should they simply back off until someone strong enough can free it? Because either by pin-whacking or chipping, the route is still being physically altered to make climbing easier. But the Nose IS chipped due to stupid Jardine traverse, which is why only sporto like Yuji, and crackhead like Scott Burke, will try to free it. According to Alex Huber, because it uses chipped holds, it has not yet been free climbed. I say he's right. Lynn Hills ascent was impressive but "free", naw. Yeah, stupid Ray Jardine and his stupid Grape Race. Funny that the inventor of super-versatile clean protection would be a chipper. Go figure. Quote
iain Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Interesting use of dynamite: Back in the day, Glen Wooldridge would navigate the Rogue River in southern Oregon with a bag of dynamite in the front of his rowboat. When he came to boulder-choked rapids that seemed impassable, he'd drop a bag of dynamite into the water, row like hell back upstream, blew a hole open, and on he went. Shaped the now super-classic class 4 Blossom Bar. Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 erik said: intent dfa, it is all about intent... most people do not hammer pins(in 98% of the time) with the intent to free climb it. chipped sport routes intent is to free it...not aid it. But why is it OK to damage the rock as long as you don't intend to free the route? But as soon as you intend to free the route it's not OK? Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 iain said: Interesting use of dynamite: Back in the day, Glen Wooldridge would navigate the Rogue River in southern Oregon with a bag of dynamite in the front of his rowboat. When he came to boulder-choked rapids that seemed impassable, he'd drop a bag of dynamite into the water, row like hell back upstream, blew a hole open, and on he went. Shaped the now super-classic class 4 Blossom Bar. True fact? DFA always was amazed that Blossom was such a clusterfuck. That would certainly explain it. Did he manufacture Mule Creek Canyon, too? Stupid chipped river all full of jetboats and sunburned gapers and aggro bears, etc. Quote
erik Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 i guess i should have put that both medium of the sport have different ethical values... you would never find an aid climber rapping the route first...and that is why the use of pins, bolts and other tom foolery is accepted. when you are rapping in from the top and have the chance to work out sequences and choose the style of route. that is the difference my friend! Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Ah, whatever ... it is, as Dwayner likes to say, "all good." Nothing like whiling away some time with one of the great timeless, pointless, and unsolvable debates of the climbing world, though. Hmm, back to sleep! Quote
iain Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 mule creek canyon is an old faultline the river gets squeezed through, all-natural as far as I know. couple fatalities off those first rocks before the coffeepot though! not a good place to swim. graves creek -> marial = classic river fun. Quote
Szyjakowski Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 Dr_Flash_Amazing said: "all good." IT is never "all good"....when are all you hippies gonna figure that out....modern slang has really got to eliminate that phrase, 'cause if it were "all good" then everywhere we would see peace and harmony, etc.....now is that true????? Quote
Dru Posted March 12, 2003 Posted March 12, 2003 hey dfa, your point about aid being trickery, and chipped requiring strength is off the wall... and as for saying that chipped is not aid cause monodoights are harder to hold onto than draws are, that is like saying if you back clean A3 it makes it a5 chipped is still, taking a piece of rock you cannot free climb, and altering it so you can climb it in other words, aid climbing french free is french free whether you grab a draw, or a cam, or a bolted on plastic hold, or a chipped hold, no matter what size the aid piece is, big or small, or how hard it is for you to hold on to it i have seen, more than once, describing alpine routes "the pitch was freed because it was too hard to aid" which invalidates your theory... the size of the hold or difficulty of the hold does not change the fact it is AID, AID, AID: using artificial means of progression. still now you can claim first ascent of some a3's right!!! Quote
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