Proper use of belay/rap harness loops

[none_dup1]

Rodchester, you asked for the story of a user being liable. Way back, 10 or more years ago, a climber tied-in to one of the two "rabbit ears" tie-in points on his harness. He ripped the point and cratered. Stupidity didn't kill him that time, and he had the cheek to try suing REI. Previously, Chounard had lost it's biz in a similar type of lawsuit related to their harness. REI was the first manufacturer to stand up to these frivilous lawsuits, where the harness was improperly used, and actually win.

[plexus]

No...too many arguements....brain can't comprehend all....at...one...time....

Anyways, I've heard people go back and forth about using the loop or tying into both. I still do it old-fashion but have used the loop the very, very few times I climb indoors when belaying and tyingin.

Is there any time frame for age of harnesses that this works for? In a clearer sense, should you use the belay loop from a harness made in, let's say, 1994, compared to one made two years ago? How about the different manufacturers?

I have a clip-in sling cinch-knotted on the loop attached to a biner (for when I get to a spot and begin setting up an anchor or when setting up a rappel.

[goatboy]

As I recall, the Chouinard lawsuit was an absurd one, which Chouinard ended up losing anyway.

A climber (who I believe was a lawyer) was being guided (with his other lawyer buddies) and took his harness off on some ledge to take a pee. When he put the harness back on, he failed to double back the buckle. He tied in. He climbed. He fell. Harness failed due to improper use. Chouinard gets sued and loses.

Seems to me that's like someone buying a car, misunderstanding how to use the seatbelt, having a wreck, and blaming the car company for faulty seatbelts. And winning.

Or the lady who dumped coffee all over herself and sued McDonald's for a zillion dollars (because unlike most restauarant coffee, the Mccoffee wasn't appropriate for wearing in her lap?)

whatever!

[carolyn]

I found this while surfing the other night...http://www.tradgirl.com/rc/faq8c.htm#belayloop

I particularly like the first entry.

[johnny]

OK, I am getting mixed messages here. I have been using a BD bod for a good long while now and am considering getting a new harness. My reasons are really more comfort oriented than anything else; hanging belays from an unpadded bod just plain suck. If I do not change, my precious little nuggets may never forgive me!! I like the idea of the belay loop for its simplicity. I have looked at several harnesses with loops and without exception the loop appears to be much more skookum than the leg/waist loops it is connected to. I know that this goes against the redundancy theory, but one loop with a greater breaking strength than the other three combined (two legs and one waist) seems to me pretty safe.

One other thing....Lots of new harnesses out there with loops and nice cushy padding and I just ain't seeing too many without. I know all about lemmings (I heard that was staged anyway..... call me if you are interested in Mutual of Omaha) but maybe the teeming hordes are right this time????

[johnny]

Thanks Carolyn!!

Tradgirl is a prett cool site. Those comments made quick sense of all the thoughts in this thread.....I especially liked the beginning, I guess it is all in a name after all!

OK, on a slightly different track, how many of you out there use a devise (ATC,etc.) to belay a second up to a stance? I have begun using the munter hitch almost exclusively. It seems to simplify the whole anchoring/ belaying process; less gear to futz with. A clove hitch on my end of the rope for my own anchor and another locking biner on the anchors' sweet spot with a munter to bring up the second. Less gear, less time.

Any thoughts???

[ScottP]

quote:

---

Originally posted by johnny:

Thanks Carolyn!!

Tradgirl is a prett cool site. Those comments made quick sense of all the thoughts in this thread.....I especially liked the beginning, I guess it is all in a name after all!

OK, on a slightly different track, how many of you out there use a devise (ATC,etc.) to belay a second up to a stance? I have begun using the munter hitch almost exclusively. It seems to simplify the whole anchoring/ belaying process; less gear to futz with. A clove hitch on my end of the rope for my own anchor and another locking biner on the anchors' sweet spot with a munter to bring up the second. Less gear, less time.

Any thoughts???

---

Are you saying that you clove hitch directly to the anchor? One thought on this is that you are taking away the dynamic nature of the natural give of your body when you take it out of the system.

[johnny]

Scott,

Yeah, whatever the anchor may be, I generally tie myself in with a clove hitch as soon as I get it built. Get yourself tied off and safe first right? I also try to always remove myself as far as possible from the belay (except for the fact that I am likely sharing the same anchor with my second)and run the belay line directly off of the anchor. When you do this with an ATC you still need to use a biner to run it back to your belay device, or you use an ATC backwards and I just ain't coordinated enough :-)

The Munter runs opposite from a belay device, locks off with one hand and uses that same biner off the anchor an ATC does. It works great when facing the anchor with the line running down to the second. The only trick is to get yourself hung such that the biner with the Munter (do I need to keep capitalizing this????) is far enough from your chest so you can work it properly without getting all cramped up.

Do any of you think that a rope friction belay type thing will wear ones rope out faster than a hardware device? Ropes are expensive you know......

What I was getting at is

[johnny]

that I failed to erase the out-takes from my last post and thusly left some obscure phrase hanging out there in space..............sorry!

[chelle]

Belaying using a munter is a good idea from what I have learned particularly on alpine routes where if something goes wrong, there is one less step to starting a rescue. No need to escape the belay.

The one downside is that is can create twist in the rope if the rope isn't fed through the biner well. The trick I learned is to feed the rope through with your hands spread wide.

[goatboy]

I used to use a munter all the time and as long as you FEED the rope through the munter (rather than PULLING it through the munter, from the climber to the brake side of the know) you don't get the awful kinks and subsequent damage to your rope.

Lowering with a munter makes the kinks unavoidable and grim.

HOWEVER, now that I have a Reverso, I use it almost exclusively. It kicks ass, as a previous thread discussed. No kinks, self-locking, equally easy to self-rescue, as you've already escaped the belay. In fact, it's easier to self-rescue because unlike a munter, which requires a mule knot to tie off, the reverso is self-locking! (I would back it up anyway, but it's easier to do so than a munter/mule combination).

Anyone agree with that?

Steve

[johnny]

I have never used a Reverso....Are they really all that AND an bag of feed?? Aren't they pretty cheap as well? Like I said, I use the munter most of the time but I am a bit concerned about rope wear. The built-in lowering bit is a mighty valuable feature too, hmmmmmmmm...........