Displaced Native

I hear what you're saying. I have heard rumor though that they have been known to medicate to help control the pain then assist the patient walking down. Guess it all depends on the needs at that moment. Steve

What about the RAT team? It's my understanding that they are up at Govy from about 9 am to dark or so...does that not offer a faster response? It's also my understanding that when they are not at Govy, they are in an ambulance down around Sandy 24/7 Steve

Buddy of mine gave me a bouquet of pink tri cams for a wedding present. I thought it was the most thoughtful gift of the whole day.

Wow!! That's really a bummer. I never would have suspected things to come to that. Skeleton Caves holds some really good memories from my childhood and was looking forward to taking my kids there. A real downer. Steve

Call me a gaper or whatever...but I can't seem to visualize what you mean by wrapping the rope on itself near the anchors...What part of this equation am I missing? What anchors do you mean? God I feel dumb, but I had to ask. Steve

Well...I may or may not catch flack for pushing a commercial company but my wife and I are both grads of National Outdoor Leadership School. aka: NOLS None of our courses were in the mountaineering field but we enjoyed their philosophy and passion for what they believe in. If you have the time/money (tuition assistance is available for some), you may want to check them out. Ed Viesturs got his start with them http://www.nols.edu/courses/find/byskill/mtneeringskill.shtml Steve

I've stayed in a snow cave for six nights with two other people. We made a really heavy duty cave, taking our time. This was part of a NOLS course. For quick, expedient emergency shelter, I would seriously revamp what we did. However, for a base camp, it was awesome. We stomped a platform about 12 feet in diameter, shape of a circle. We then scooped snow from outside the circle onto our platform into a dome about 5 feet tall, packing it with slaps from the shovels as we stacked it. We then let that set up for an hour. We stuck skis and poles all around the stacked dome about two feet in depth. It made the dome resemble a bristled porcipine..sorta. The idea being that as we hollowed the cave from the inside, when we hit a ski or pole, we knew we were about two feet thick at that point. We then picked an aspect where we wanted our door. We chose an east view for the morning sun to help warm things up in the morning, but not bake us through the long part of the day. On the east side, we dug down at the edge of our platform approx 5 feet, in a crater about 8 feet long by 5 feet wide. We called this the "bomb crater" In the bomb crater, we sculpted counter tops, cabinets, shelves. This would be our kitchen. Where the bottom of the bomb crater met the platform, we burrowed straight in about a body length. One person is the "mole", scooping snow behind themselves, the other two guys outside taking the snow, tossing it out of the bomb crater. Once he was about a body length into the dome, the mole starts to burrow upwards about a half of body length. From there, he starts to carve out the cave. This ensures that the cave has a higher floor than entrance, acting as a heat trap. Dome shape on the inside is key to both drip control and for strength. We had six days of "baja beach days" in the Tetons. It felt like it hit 60 degrees in the sun every day. At the end of the week, we had six guys standing on top of the cave and no signs of failure. I qualify for the Clydesdale division of most competitions (fat body) and it took some serious jumping before we got it to break. http://www.flickr.com/groups/52497336@N00/pool/ should be a link to some caves built on similiar NOLS trips. Like I said..if you were in a pickle and time of the essence, I would seriously NOT follow that way of building. However, if I was pinned in for a few days and had nothing but time, I would remodel anything I slapped together in a hurry. You do get wet. You're working so hard that wearing just your shell gear makes good sense. You won't be cold. We used a ski to drill two vent holes..just twisting the ski as we pushed it through. Steve

As for an opinion on REI... REI is a large successful company that has managed to expand across the nation and in essence, corner a very large share of the outdoor retail market. It is not uncommon for small locally owned shops to fold their doors as a result of an REI in the same city/neighborhood. REI is failing to staff its stores with enough trained, knowledgable staff who can give you solid beta on the gear, local routes, or other pertinent data. I am not saying that all their staff are sub-par, but it's a rare day that I find someone in the store who knows what the heck they are selling. The company is large enough to absorb losses at certain stores and re allocate funds from other locations to ride out bumps in the local economy. Smaller locally owned shops can't compete. They don't have the reserve capitol. Some of us feel that if folks would frequent the smaller locally owned stores and boycott big box stores (home depot, walmart, target rei ect ect ect) then it would give local owners a better foothold in the market place. That would benefit the consumer because then we can go to place who employs people who know their stuff. We, as a consumer, get better service, more knowledgable staff, and a better feel for buying local. The downside of small shops they may not have the gear you want, when you want it. With smaller inventories on hand, they gotta prioritize what gets retail space. They are always eager to order it for you and can have it in a week, but that does nothing to help you replace xxxx item for the weekend trip tomorrow. Solution...be organized, plan early. Sometimes an elitist attitude may form. That's a managment issue. If you, as a consumer, feels your dollar is not welcome in a store, I would recommend letting the manager on duty know. Beginner or seasoned vet, your money is the same color, your business is just as important as the next guy. Just because you don't know the difference between a standard static rope and a dynamic double dry doesn't mean you should be treated in any way but courteous. Most small shops know this and do well by it. I could go on for awhile but I'm just rambling and watching myself type. In short, in my opinion, REI has turned into a faceless Big Box Store and smothers smaller, independent retailers. It pushes out the little guy. They can offer better prices on some items and then there is always the member rebate at the end of the year. However, if there are no other retails where you live/play, then you don't have much of a choice. REI does carry name brand high end gear. You can find Metolius, Black Diamond, Patagonia, Camp 4, and other reputable dealers. As a neophyte, these will serve you well for many years to come. When you start bagging the 8000 meter peaks, then you may want to upgrade your kit a bit. After all that babbling, I guess the bottom line is you can find what you want at REI, but you lose a little soul. Support your local small business owner, they are working hard for you. Good luck and congrats on the weight loss..it ain't easy, especially being a student while doing it. Steve

Thank you to everyone for their input during this horrible chain of events. I even extend my thanks to the people who have shared their spray as well. I think it helps exemplify the passion held by all of us. I have been reading the thread from it's creation and I finally couldn't keep my mouth shut any longer. I had to say a couple of things. People really kept it pretty together for most of the week while waiting for the storm to break. The tension and concern were easily palpable. The real flame fests, attitudes, spray, jumping to conclusions and other issues didn't really surface until Mr. James was found. I liken this cyber situation much like a spring...all week long the tension was building. That spring was being wound overtight. When Kelly was found, people just exploded. Their brain and sometimes rational thought were overpowered by the concern, passion, frustration, and saddness. In my opinion, the "arm chair quarterbacking" and other similar posts are nothing more than the natural human reaction. There are a good number of people that find questioning the chain of events as disrespectful. I disagree. If I, or someone from my close circle where to perish in similar circumstances I would really want the world to know what happened. I am a very firm believer in the adage of "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it". Churchill's statement doesn't just apply to world politics. The flip side of that coin is that I do agree that the recall of events needs to be as accurate as possible. Speculation and theory may make for interesting conversations and people may be able to glean some insight or knowledge about risk managment/accident prevention. However, speculation and theories does not do the people directly involved any sort of justice. Only the recount of true events (to the best we can learn) will honor the fallen and teach the living. I like to think that should my life be ended prematurely in the pursuit of my passions, my last moments will not have been in vain. That someone, somewhere, will discover what happened, be them good attempts or horrible mistakes, and learn from those moments. Do not make the same errors that I may or may not have made. If I succembed to a twist of fate beyond my control or if I made a lethal momentary lapse in judgement..find the truth, share it, learn from it. So my point is that I wish to treat Kelly, Nikko, and Brian in the same manner that I would want to be treated. Steve