crimper

Hey Paul from Hood River: I think that due to its location, relatively short season, and scarcity of moderate routes, Area 51 is never going to "blow up" and get crowded. It's at least a two hour drive from portland, and nobody from bend is ever gonna drive to area 51. and bulo is the perfect decoy for that area, don't you think? i think Area 51 will stay pretty chill for a long long time, even without the standard "poison oak, loose rock and bad bolts" misinformation. also, my comment about bad clipping stances, etc., was based on pure hearsay, and i could be wrong. i hope i'm wrong! so enjoy your local crag. it will never be a destination, and for you and the rest of the hood river locals it's better that way. maybe one day i'll get back there, but i doubt it.

since it looks like nothing of substance is gonna get posted by you guys about infinite bliss, i'm outta here. i'm sure you'll miss me! but i'll still be lurking...and superior...

g-spotter, are you gavin in pdx? anyway, what's up with the kid questions? (i have to ask just so you'll deliver the punchline)

DirtyHarry, you're a tool. and so am i. why else would we spend our time and energy on these posts? the difference is that i'm trying to gather information on a climb, and you're just making snarky comments. snark away, i guess. when you read your posts i laugh at them, so you're a useful tool at least.

so, back to kevbone's question: how many of the IBliss haters have actually climbed IBliss? (i am not of the opinion that one has to have done a climb in order to have a problem with it, so please don't think i'm going down that path: hate away!)

superior as a word is a concept that can only exist in relation to the capacity or quality being judged as more or less superior. being superior is thus a relative concept. one could be superior in one's arrogance, for example. or superior in one's elitism.

So kevbone asks for a better topo than the ones he was able to find using google, and a bunch of you seize the opportunity to criticize him for wanting to do the route in the first place? Sounds like the typical contribution from the average cc.com user! Never passing up the chance to feel superior to someone else! Is there some kind of Valhalla in the sky for self-righteous wannabe climbing elitists when they die that i don't know about?

joseph, by focusing on eric, you're choosing to focus on one particular tree in the forest, since this helps take the attention away from yourelf. nobody knew what eric did unless they observed it first hand, therefore his actions were under the radar and not observed by most of the people who read this forum and learn about everything that you've done right down to your opinion on the best way to take a leak on grassy ledges with a harness on. that's why you get this kind of treatment, and other people didn't and don't - and again, i have never even said i had a problem with eric's actions, so you can't accuse me in particular of failing to criticize him or say something to him. i didn't even put up routes back when eric was active, and i was only starting to learn about the ethical component to climbing.

i matter because i climb there and i put myself out there as bryan smith (have fun googling that, but it's the truth) and so i actually have credibility (i think!) with people who read this. you're just posting for the sole purpose of entertaining yourself. not that i don't have fun with it, too, but i really climb there and will continue to, so i have an interest in helping shape the direction of beacon - which many of the locals think joseph is harming. you wouldn't even be following this thread right now if people like me didn't think it mattered at least a little bit. not to get too serious about it.

Joseph, you keep shifting the issue to eric as a way to deflect the spotlight from your own actions. But the very reason why people didn't want to run eric out of town - while some people seem to want to run you out of town - is that eric didn't spray about what he did on the internet. he didn't appoint himself king. He just came and climbed what he wanted to climb. I am not for one second going to defend eric's ethics or actions, so don't even think of engaging me in another argument that distracts from your own actions. the point, Joseph, is that you have a king-sized ego and it pisses people off. You also never get too mad at anyone except kevbone. but that's only because you are old enough that you've tempered your temper and you're damn well aware park rangers - by your own invitation - read what you write. you probably even forward them the snippets that make you look the best. so i think you stew privately but censor yourself online. do the rest of you realize the game joseph is playing? i at least respect flying pig/andrew (what's up in CO?)for being candid. and rumr, who the hell are you? why do you matter? seriously? bottom line, joseph - since who else would i be bitching about - i think you have good intentions for beacon, but yer blowing it.

My two cents on flyingpig, with the caveat that his comments don't even matter: It's not Jim O. or Kevbone. It's a gay-baiting redneck who climbed at beacon at least as far back as the late 90s. I appreciate that he shares my concerns about Joseph emerging from obscurity and deciding to become self-appointed King Beacon at the cost of possibly doing more harm than good at Beacon, long-term. Then again, the alienating tough-guy stance - combined with his decision to stay anonymous even after being called out on his anonymity - means that flyingpig has zero relevance in this discussion. Flyingpig, you may make me laugh, but as your name implies, you don't even exist

Jen, I can at least suggest climbs to do. There are some good trad lines 5-9 and under in the park, as opposed to the lower gorge where most of the lines are 5-10a and up. Moscow (5-6), Super Slab (5-6) and Spiderman (5-7) are easy but classic trad multis. Lion's jaw (5-8), moonshine dihedral (5-9), testament crack (soft 10a) are good single pitch trad lines. These are all in the park (not the gorge or marsupials) The Phoenix (10a), Nine gallon Buckets (9+, or 10c if you go all the way), More Sandy than Kevin (10d/11a), Caffeine Free (10c but really 10a), Toxic (11b), Blackened (11b), John Galt Line (11a/b, Reason to Be (10d) and Hissing Llamas (5-8) are good sport lines in the Park. Seasons Change (11a) and Wherevere I May roam (9) are good sport multis. have fun!

uh-oh, kevbone. is your trigger finger getting itchy? is ozone feeling played out to you.... you know as well as i do that (allegedly) a hood river-area couple bolted many of the lines there, but couldn't complete them. so most of the best faces have already been rapbolted, then left unfinished. i also heard (you were there, i thought) that they put many of the bolts where there are no apparent clipping holds, and just generally made a mess of what could have been a fine crag.

phillygoat, thanks for the introspective post. you probably spoke for more than a few people. about 2 years ago i first started posting after 2-3 years of lurking myself, so i relate. i generally only post when i'm concerned about something that i believe starts a bad precedent. i don't usually think my post will have any effect on the person i'm criticizing (usually joseph), but i hope to at least reach the audience and make them aware of the principles and ethical concerns that govern the action i'm criticizing. one concrete concern i have is that the "trad" areas are going to be visited by sport climbers who want to add more fixed gear to the existing lines, or who will start squeezing in lines between the existing lines. this damages the rights of the first ascentionist, and the whole concept of a first ascent being respected, and the character of a crag being preserved. for example, i posted earlier on cc.com about this kid here in bend who bolted a line diagionally across, and then 5 parallel to, an all-trad line at cougar mtn. this was his first route and he was clueless. he just led an existing sport climb to its anchor, then rapbolted the crack - as if he was the first person who ever conceived of doing so! we arrived when he was at the anchor and about to pound the first bolt into the highest hole he'd drilled, and we tried to explain this to him, and i even told him that many people had had the oppotunity to rapbolt the crack, but they realized that 1) it was an existing line and 2) it's wrong to bolt a crack that accepts gear, even if it's unclimbed. so as i say, this kid was ignorant of any of this. he made nice to our faces, then pounded the bolts into the holes he'd already drilled as soon as we left. so this story demonstrates the trend i'm concerned about. crowds: i don't have a big concern about more traffic at beacon due to joseph's posts, or anyone's posts. my concern is that he is being selfish and twisting and perverting ethical concerns in order to get the result he wants, when he should know better. but i will say this about ozone: we kept that place quiet for about 2 years, and it was a great two years. if we'd posted our daily actvities, we wouldn't have been alone for long, and we wouldn't have had the experience we had. so yeah, message board have their place. and kevin and i have been friends forever, which is why we can be bitterly opposed on an issue but still be buds. PS: i led P1 and followed P2 of route 66 in the mugginess on saturday. you and kev did a good job with the rock you were given. i look forward to leading it in cooler temps!

Bill, do you honestly think this is about writing styles? i've made these points over and over to Joseph since last summer, and all he does is explain himself, then stay on the exact same course. That has made me feel pretty damn alienated! As someone (Mark Twain?) once said, one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result. That being the case, it would be insane of me to expect Joseph to do anything concrete about my concerns. So i'm over it. if the rest of the beacon community doesn't care, then it gets what it deserves. Oh, and as someone else (Edward Abbey?) once said: beware the man who has no enemies.

the earlier information i gave you had to do with bouldering and single pitch stuff because with very few exceptions - like smith - that is all you get within 100 miles of bend. so for that reason, you may as well just live in bend and at least have the best access to that kind of climbing. (though there is a large cliff 12 miles west of bend that has multis. a little obscure for those who like ratings and names, but great for those who like adventure) so for every climbing-related reason, i'd pick bend.

there is decent bouldering at 3-5 locations within 3-10 miles to the west of bend. there are a couple small-ish highball/TR basalt column areas in this zone as well. most are within 1-2 miles (or even 100 feet) of the deschutes river. follow the river to find the rock. not much climbing to the east of bend unless you drive 25-30 miles at a minimum (just for cliffband bouldering). not much to the south unless you drive an hour or so, again just for boulders. and of course smith is to the north. what i'm saying is that if you live within 5 miles of downtown bend, there is a lot of rock, and most of it is to the west of town.

joseph, i'm the one who conveyed to kevin my opinion that by mindlessly and obsessively replacing gear and anchors out at beacon you have acted as a thief. i said that because you are NOT A LOCAL and if you were, you would have known exactly who installed those chains, and you could have communicated directly with them to ensure that they at least got back the chains they installed. many of these anchors were recent and were installed by current climbers, most of whom know each other. if you really cared, you would have done that. But your loyalty is clearly and solely to the BRSP, and not any fellow climbers. You allude to your desire to follow consensus, but that's a lie and you know it. You just post this stuff knowing full well it's all written in a way that the BRSP will consider you a loyal subject. i also called your actions "theft" becauase i understand you removed decades worth of historical gear from beacon's routes. did you ask anyone, or seek any consensus before you did that? some of us actually liked seeing this tangible evidence of the past, to feel that we were following in the footsteps of our elders. what gives you the right to make these unilateral decisions? how would you feel if someone else went around doctoring your routes, chopping your bolts, removing the anchors you installed. beacon rock just isn't big enough for two joseph's, now is it? I've long known that no email will make you change your future actions, so why am i even writing this? I'm not even sure. I think I'm just coming to the sad realization that you can't be lawfully stopped and so these are my parting words. You and your selfish motivations are a plague and a parasite on Beacon Rock and I hope with all my heart that you never, ever visit or even hear about the crags I care about.

For what it is worth, I also think the consensus of the locals is that Joseph should refrain from posting every bit of trivia about his activities at Beacon, and so I have to second Kevbone and agree with him. If Joseph's sole goal is to document the history of his activities, then that's what a diary is for. In Joseph's last post he clearly stated that he had purely selfish motives in mind when he placed the bolt on Reasonable Richard. That really surprised me, as this action seems to fly in the face of the "trad" standards he loves to intimidate younger climbers with when he posts on cc.com. (and also supertopo, he's posted some gems there, though they always seem to relate to toproping roof problems in southern illinois in the seventies) So if pure selfishness becomes the rationale for adding bolts to existing lines, where does it stop? Why not add yet another bolt on pitch 2 of young warriors for the purely selfish reason that I'm spooked by the butthole crack? And why stop there, why not add another bolt above the piton on the third pitch, so I'll feel even more secure when I leave the crack? But then again, Joseph already wrote that "I've climbed with a lot of "name" climbers of my generation over the years and like anything else there is good and bad in there - but no one, and I mean no one is more LNT than me" I guess we're all helpless against that kind of V10 spray! How can you argue with a man who is the most leavingest no trace on the planet? possibly in the universe! I'm sure he road bikes to beacon every time, a 60 pound pack on his back, just to avoid burning fossil fuels!

Joseph, regarding your bolting of reasonable richard: First: You wrote: "both the bolt and the pin were placed on lead and are easily removed if that ends up being the consensus." If consensus was your goal, why not seek consensus BEFORE adding the bolt? nobody wants to chop bolts, so why needlessly create that possibility? Second: It is a sucker's game to add or chop bolts by consensus anyway, and you should know that (which is why your reference to "consensus" above is disingenuous). the entire concept of respecting the style of the first ascentionist necessarily means resisting the whims of the majority, and its "consensus". Earlier you agreed with snoop when he quoted royal robbins, and the ethic of not adding fixed pro to climbs that we don't have the skills to lead in their current state - so how come you contradicted yourself by taming this climb down to your level, rather than creating a new climb to the right, or letting someone else create that climb? Third: If your answer to the above question is that your sole goal in adding the bolt was to create reasonable access to the upper columns, then why did't you work with mark on creating a new, reasonably protected route, as he suggested earlier, rather than impulsively drilling the bolt and altering an existing climb? i think this question begs to be answered as well. please do. I appreciate your anchor replacement initiative and your efforts to work with the local gov't agencies, but sometimes it seems to me you go too far. You filled the leadership vacuum out at beacon, and i think someone had to, but please don't abuse it. -Bryan

Thanks Bill for getting where I was coming from. I'll be up at beacon with kevbone, snoop and some other degenerates in two saturdays; maybe I'll see you out there. Alpinfox, thanks for providing more information for those who want to weigh in on the subject. I saved my letter so i'll send it there as well; it can't hurt to send it twice, can it?

We can also debate the question "Do you really think an email is going to do anything?" to death, but would that really achieve anything? My point is that if you write an email, you might actually achieve something, but if you don't write an email, you definitely will not. My uncle once said that you earn your right to bitch about politics through voting - if you didn't exercise your right to vote, you shouldn't bitch about the results later. Same thing applies here, IMHO. Besides losing a few minutes of your time, what do you stand to lose by casting your vote on the proposed fee? (and yeah, I also thought the BLM would make this decision, not the forest service)

I meant my last post as a call to arms. Looks like "Winter" got my point, so far.

Why don't you people spend your time and energy actually contacting the forest service and registering your opinions with them - since it some cases a concerted public outcry has actually had an effect on government response - rather than engaging in your insular and impotent bitching and moaning? i swear that most of you would rather be repressed and oppressed so you have some weird kind of "crag cred" as opposed to standing up and being counted by the real world beyond the crag. I am going to back my words up and send a message to the forest service at aroberts@fs.fed.us. How many of you impotent whiners will do the same? It's going to take about 5 minutes of my time nd I'll feel that I at least tried to help the situation. But again, some of you would rather just cry in your keyboards and long for the good old days. Nostalgia kills the future if you let it.

I want to provide some background to this discussion. I know Kevbone, Markd and Bill Coe personally. I have been a first-hand witness to most of the routes put up at the area being described; I probably belayed Kevbone on half his first ascents. I know Kevbone, I like Kevbone, he's a friend of mine. (even if this post won't sound that way) But I know he pushes the ethical limit, though I think he mainly does so to get a rise out of people. For example, he polled local climbers on whether it was acceptable to bolt a climb at Broughton Bluff (Mr. Bentley) that is currently either a toprope problem or a bold solo (the route is an 11plus in the guide, I believe). He posed the question in such a way that he wanted people to feel that it was currently a "waste of rock" and that just because Chris Hill and others had soloed it did not mean he should then be prevented from leading it in a way he would feel safe leading it. In my opinion he made it seem that the soloers (and not him) were the selfish ones, because their actions had made it an ethical "no-no" for him too bolt it, when all he really wanted to do was make it safe and "open to the masses". Luckily, and not surprisingly, those polled told him "No" and so he never bolted it. I included that anecdote because I want people to understand two things: first, this is the ethical "place" where kevbone comes from; second, kevbone also has not added bolts or otherwise tampered with existing routes. (though it's possible that someone can correct me on this; i'm talking to you, stewart and markd). So he has not crossed the line and actually added bolts to existing routes, but at the same time, I think it's important that Kevbone is told in no uncertain terms that his attempts to attacks the ethical foundation of climbing - unconditional respect for the methods employed by the first ascentionist -are shallow, myopic, ridiculous and should be firmly rejected. Bold first ascents are not a waste of rock, they are tangible pieces of history and should be cherished and protected by the climbers of today. Standards should be improved upon, not degraded simply because it's really easy to rapbolt at quasi-urban crags. Postscript: markd and i were at a crag near bend the other day and observed a guy rapbolting directly across an established all-gear crack climb. We stopped him after he had only drilled one bolt, and pointed out that the tickmarks for his planned bolts were within 2-3 feet of the crack and in fact crossed the crack. we were polite and explained the ethical violation he was about to commit. we got the impression he would choose to yank the bolt and cvhoose another line for his first-ever first ascent. wrong. he added 3-4 more bolts. This is the mindset that gets perpetuated, and the actions that result, when opinions like kevbone's are not firmly repudiated in a public forum. now someone's got to chop those bolts to send a message.