JosephH

Norman, if you hit Tierra Del Fuego keep an eye open for Charlie Porter and his "Ocean Tramp" ketch which is in Puerto Montt in the winter and sails down to Puerto Williams in the summer and also hits Ushuaia. He runs charters for NOAA and others. I believe his contact info can be had via AAC member Olaf Sööt at osoot@olafsoot.com... Oh, and there's a thread about you going on SuperTopo.com at http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=276456&f=30&b=0

You and your friend have clearly never done much in the way of interesting trad climbing. One would suspect from this diatribe that you and your friend pretty well just play it safe all the way around and then wonder what all the excitement is all about...

I climbed on it a bunch shortly after it was built when I [briefly] lived in Seattle long ago. I personally have a hard time seeing what the fuss is all about. If it comes down to it, just ove move the damn thing or build a better one nearby - hell, it's a chunk of concrete, not the Eliminator...

Back in the '70s doing roofs along the shore of Lake Michigan in late fall and early winter the folks on my crew used to wear really warm clothes over our core and tape stick handwarmers against the underside of our wrists and then eat niacin to force blood out of our core into the extremites. It worked really well and we could shingle all day in below freezing temps and winds without our hands getting cold. I'd suggest skipping the niacin but rigging some means of keeping a couple of those shake-up handwarmer pouches against the undersides of your wrists; preferrably with some sort of buffering material between it and your skin. I'll be trying to come up with an updated version of it for myself for out at Beacon now that its turned cold. I think I've looked at some gloves where they were trying to do this, but I'm not sure they had the "pouch" in the right place relative to the viens / arteries going through the wrist. You could also keep your core temp elevated by rigging a couple of the larger heat packs against your kidneys on each side of your lower back.

Thanks Phil - couldn't find that one for some reason...

Bill Coe and I have had prototype sets for a couple of seasons and they work great. The only time I rack one of my Alien Hybrids is for when I'm only going to hang only one side of the cam in a shallow slot which is something they still excel at. That might describe some pin scars but most of the time the Metolius Offsets cover them fine...

http://cgi.ebay.com/TITANIUM-PITONS-CLIM...1QQcmdZViewItem

McCain - the new Dole. Please do run McCain. As a Democrat, I can't think of another Republican I'd rather see on the ticket in '08 than him. Maybe run a 'McCain / Harris' ticket to really round out your chances...

An Edwards / Obama ticket would clean house... A Biden / Obama ticket would suffice. A Clinton / Obama ticket would likely get them both killed with all the nut jobs running around. An Obama / x ticket would be 4-8 years premature - I'd rather save him for a bit and see how he matures in the Senate or as VP.

Can't necessarily concur with these conclusions being the takeaway lessons from losing Todd. 1) Consider a back-up for your belay loop. - Consider inspecting your harness (and all gear) frequently and replacing it when worn or damaged. - Understand that the current "ultralight" trend is not "free" - the costs quite often are paid in longevity and robustness. If you go "lite" expect to inspect and replace gear at a much higher freqency and ultimately treat all such gear as consumable or disposable after a perod of time. 2) Don't use anything old or questionable when a failure is serious. 3) Toss your old shit, especially biners and slings. 4) Be suspect of skinny slings. - Blanket assumptions do not apply across classes of gear and materials. Know the limitations of the materials and designs of your gear. - Understand the material lifecycle limitations and acceptable conditions for use of all your gear. Inspect it often, replace as necessary. - Don't get overly attached to gear - especially "comfortable" gear that can't be replaced because it is no longer made. - We all tend to be cheap and "get used" to gear we like; understand this is not always appropriate in all cases - be critical, flexible, and adaptable. - Don't try to "squeak" one more route, trip, or season out of worn or damaged gear. 5) It is easy to use two biners on your belay - rappel 6) Double yourself up when "daisying off" at hanging raps, etc. - Know when redundancy is appropriate, necessary, and / or desirable and how it can best be achieved. - Understand redundancy can be acheived in many ways and don't go overboard (like one daisy and the rope vs. two daisies). "One is good, two is better" is not always true, but sometimes it is - know the difference which may vary based on conditions and circumstance. =============================================== The act of climbing involves a "risk context" with many component and constituent elements and subcontexts. One [concrete] "risk subcontext" is the system comprised of all physical components associated with protection from the belayer to leader as well as the strategy and tactics used in its implementation on each route. Another [abstract] "risk subcontext" is the collection of decisions made by all parties during a climb based on the route attributes, experience, expertise, and environmental conditions involved. You should strive to understand as much as possible about the limitations of material, design, and use of all physical components involved and how they contribute to your overall "risk profile" at any time. That is germane both in the long-term relative to gear maintenance and in the short term relative to how you employ / deploy gear to get up a route. In general, it is fairly remarkable how many of today's climbers coming out of gyms perceive risk. They often tend to completely overlook obvious perils and obsess over things that present trival risk at best. Try to learn as much as you can, keep your eyes and ears open, and think for yourself...

I think as a rule you can just assume webbing-to-wire is a real losing proposition. For everything else I think you can make more or less make a blanket statement that soft-on-soft is a sub-optimal combo. But you really have to distinguish between webbing made of stiff high tech fibers like Dyneema, Kevlar, Spectra, etc and plain old nylon webbing. Soft-on-soft with any of the high tech stuff is pretty much completely out as would be using it to girth hitching anything with a small diameter like a biner. But, I and every other old guy here has girth hitched endless nylon slings over the years and we're all here. I don't know of any incidents with doing it among any peers my age. That said soft-on-soft of any material isn't the best of all possible ideas. And not to rag on Sherman, but his rap anchor rigging completely sucked. Aside from having three cams minimum, the rope should have gone to two in-line, equalized cams in roughly the position of the one with the webbing that cut. He then could have put an alpine butterfly in the rope out from that and used the (slack) webbing on the cam to the left as a backup. In general that setup was a poster child for doing any of the "sliding-x" anchors or even just a cordelette.

Three years after the invasion and we're reduced to trying to secure Baghdad? If Iraq were WWII France it would be like having our backs against the water trying to hold the beaches at Normandy in a retreat three weeks after having broken out of them for the countryside. It was stupid going in, but even in that the administration has wasted one opportunity after another and now it's too late to salvage any of it. The lot of them should be up for treason as far as I'm concerned.

Just a note that Mammut sent me some 12mm Dynemma's to try out and I like them in terms of there is a bit more visual confidence that they might have a bit more longevity and ability to withstand abuse. But I also can't help but think that the weakness of the Dyneema is in the fibers themselves regardless of whether they are in an 8mm or 12mm configuration. That after x number of tight bends I'm guessing they are both shot. I also have no doubt that a 12mm is just as apt to cut under a girth hitch as the 8mm. I like these slings (especially the Mammut ones) and I'll be testing these after a couple of years, but I believe all smaller dyneema slings need to be treated as a short-lived consumable / disposable that need to be changed out after two years or so, after a wall or two, or after being subject to any harsh, suspect conditions or events. I'm swapping out all my 8mm this winter (some after 2 years, some after 3) and replacing some of them with 12mm slings.

Mr. Phil - thanks, missed that last phrase in the reading...

goatboy - where is that from?

Yep, very sad news; but one note from the SuperTopo thread - according to Steve Bechtel who is helping with Todd's affairs he was climbing with Jim Hewitt at the time, rather than Jimmy Chin ...

Break in girth hitchhed 8mm Mammut Dyneema sling...

It's in the Ranger Station's lost and found... contact them at Beacon.Rock@parks.wa.gov

Hybrids are the only Aliens I own, and have had two sets of them for years. I like them for the unique qualities they offer, but Metolius are my main cams and have been since my original Friends were stolen in the early 90's. It has always bugged me that I've had to buy brands other than Metolius for things like Alien Hybrids, Wild Country Offsets, and big BD Cams (and I've always hated BD cams). Because of that and my involvement in the whole Aliens fiasco, I knew Ivo had been bugging Metolius to market offsets. I jumped in seconding that and in strongly urging them to add offsets to their product line. Part of that effort resulted in some early prototypes and so I've been using mine for several years (they aren't Ultralights, though). Bill Coe has also had a set and he can speak for himself as to how he likes them. My take on them is that if you are at all technically inclined relative to placements, or do any aid climbing, then you should definitely pop for a set of these. Mine are permanently on my rack and while I still use the Alien Hybrids on occasion, I only rack one of them when I have a specific need it. The Aliens still have their place for when I need to hang only one side the cam in a surface notch or pin scar or when I want a very flexible stem. But in an either or situation it's the Metolius every time. They are just made so much better than the Aliens it isn't even funny. Mine have now been integrated into my rack and thinking for so long at this point I can't imagine not having them while I'm climbing. Also, my prototypes just have regular old solid colored tubing and slings and I rack them alongside the regular cam of the same size but on a gold gate Petzl Spirits as opposed to the purple gated Spirits all my other cams are on. I highly recommend these, but then I'm completely pregidous. Now, if we could only get Metolius to get on with the big Super Cams so I can ditch the trash BD's.

As I said in the bolt nazi thread, it really depends on the situation. At my limit I've probably backed off as many as I've runout over the time I've been climbing. It's again hard for me imagine a personal "I don't do runouts" policy in the same way many people say "I don't free solo". Regardless of the potential for hitting something - going or not for me is always an on-the-spot decision based on a running risk analysis. Some days I'm up for it, some days I shrivel. Last week I did a hard roof with a definite ledge fall over a #00 cam after realizing the hold I used to establish good pro higher up was no longer there. I hemmed and hawed, but finally decided retreat wasn't a very attractive option either and so managed the moves - just barely. I didn't have complete confidence I could stay established above the roof, but felt I could at least aim a fall, that even if the cam blew it would slow me down, and I had a good idea of where I was likely to end up even if it might be rough. Would I do the same thing tomorrow? I don't know, but I'll be finding out as I'll be heading back up to check out some nearby lines. It was right on the edge and it will really depend on how I feel when I'm under it again. Hopefully having recently survived it I'll be able to just move through it this time with a minimum of angst. And that brings up the issue of familiar versus onsight runouts. Given a choice, I really prefer them onsight as I find there is nothing worse than trying to "remember" your way through one; better to approach it fresh.

Joseph, based on the above 2 sets of statements, I'd like to digress a little to ask: what is your opinion of what is reasonable gear for avoiding the placement of a bolt by an FA? Let's say, hypothetically, that you're putting up a new route, and somewhere up one of the pitches (in a section that is on par with the overall grade of the climb - i.e. not necessarily the crux, but not really easy either) you come to a spot where it turns blank for about 40 feet before another good crack becomes available. On your way up, after 15 feet you find 1 placement for one of your little crack'n'ups w/ a screamer on it, and after another 10, you get in a little microstopper, before going the last 15 ft to a crack. As the FA, would you put any bolts in that section, or leave them off because you personally were able to protect that section with specialty pieces (knowing that the route would be R/X for anyone showing up with a more main-stream rack)? Just for the record, I've never placed a protection bolt on a route of mine. I placed and removed one on an existing route once, but that had nothing to do with the route per se but with overall climbing management issues. I have placed a few pins in keeping with traditions, and they were in exactly the scenario you describe - retro'ed on pitches where I did the FA on a string of [bomb] Crack 'N Ups and small ball nuts (none of which required screamers in that particular case). The pins are in a couple Crack'N Ups placements because you can't buy them today. Ball nuts anyone can buy, so those are placements still require them. But in this specific case, "anyone showing up with a more main-stream rack" isn't very likely to head up that route. But your statement "specialty pieces" speaks more to the issue in my eyes; I don't consider ball nuts "specialty pieces" but rather carry a #1, #2, and #3 as a standard part of my rack. I guess in reality, being a bit of a coward, the reason I've always free climbed with all that aid gear is for me it comes down to 'any pro is good pro' and I'll take 'marginal' pro over no pro every time. My old partner Jim Tangen-Foster on the otherhand takes the approach "no pro is less sh#t I have to hassle with" and just gets on with it. Take your pick I guess...

Phillip, I can't necessarily agree with this as a blanket statement. I think every line has a unique story to tell. How well we percieve, understand, and interpret that story depends heavily on ones abilities, skills, experience, and style. My personal approach has always been extremely prejudiced against fixed pro and especially against bolts. To justify the use of fixed pro from that starting point means each and every such decision represents a real dilemma and results in some introspection in the process. I basically agree that any time fixed pro is placed you are abdicating to risk - but you are doing the same when you place gear as well. The question is more around why, and for me it comes down to what is the line all about. If it's in the middle of a sport crag then what it's all about is likely determined by that fact and what the line has to offer in that regard is irrelavant. If it's not, then then I guess I look at what the overall character and 'risk profile' of a prospective route is all about - what is the line about? Why am I climbing it at all. That's pretty nebulous I know, but it's one of those deals where "I know it when I see it..." sort of deals. I'm never casual about routes - they either hook me and I obsess over a line or I don't do it. When one does there it is usually speaking to me in one way or another. People have typically tended to think my routes are "spicy" not so much because of the moves themselves, but more because the protection can be fairly technical. On some of my routes establishing the protection is both technically challenging and physically demanding, but that is integral to the 'flavor' of the route. But I'm a complete freak for highly technical placements and love the challenge presented by what some consider "marginal" placements. I'm not so much a gear nerd as a placement nerd, so when I resort to a piece of fixed pro it means the gear doesn't exist or it's so marginal that any placement would be "contrived" in the sense it really isn't going to hold a fall and is more about art than function. So to get back to that abdication to risk - yeah, short of free soloing everything, we all abdicate to risk to a degree. I approach it on a line-by-line, placement-by-placement basis and try to keep fixed pro to an absolute minimum within the context of how the line is 'speaking' to me. I have backed down and walked away from more than one FA because they had so many runouts they would be 'contrived' free / free-solo hybrids with no option but bolting to remedy them and that's not what my climbing is about any more than sport climbing is.

Kevin, Whoa dude, I thought you were complaining about folks not wanting to engage you in legitimate discussion? I did not "comment or complain to me about my style!" I was simply picking up on one of your earlier are comments you made about your not doing runouts. I'm simply curious as to what that's about. And in no way am I "attacking" you or your routes; I was making a general statement about all folks doing FA's with fixed protection and the intersection between their views on runouts and the application of fixed pro. I'm not saying you as an FA shouldn't put them up how you call them; but saying folks might think you both did a fine job on one and didn't really "get" the line on another. We all have to accept that reality when we choose to employ fixed pro on an FA. Again, I wasn't commenting on your specific routes or style per se - which I haven't climbed as you rightly point out - so much as asking about your earlier comments relative to runouts. It was actually an attempt at real conversation.

Kevbone, So what is the deal with you and this runout business? You've said it's about not putting your fun at jeopardy but I have to say on the surface that sounds more like a downstream benefit of a blanket decision not to not do runouts, as opposed to saying what it is about doing them that drove such a decision. I've alternately both done and backed down from three decades of runouts for various reasons but have never had a personal blanket "policy" around them so am curious. If your FA's were trad climbs I'd say it was a completely personal decision and no one else's business; but when you're putting up routes with fixed pro then I think it does start to have some bearing on other people relative to the decisions you are embedding in stone for everyone. That's not to say that I think routes should necessarily have FA's on them, but when one presents itself on a line and the risks are otherwise manageable, but I see a bolt square in the middle of it, then I usually end up thinking the FA didn't really have what it took to realize the true potential the line offered up to them. This really gets into the whole issue of how one balances "community service" (aka pride / "wanting others to do your route") versus realizing the full potential of a route. Any route can be bolted down so the masses can safely be entertained on it, but what judgment, control, and personal responsibility skills are they developing in the process? I understand those skills are largely irrelavant if you consider climbing mere entertainment. However, a majority of climbers holding such a view, in and of itself for me, is as sad a turn of events in climbing as I can image, but that's just one old man's opinion.

I bet you caught him on a hip belay right? No, his girlfriend did, at a hanging belay...