A_Little_Off_Route

Here are some pediatric specific suggestions and one non-pediatric one: Some kind of first aid spray with lidocane can help take the sting/hurt out of an otherwise trip-ending abrasion for the little ones. Band aids with cartoon characters really do go over well with the little ones, though you probably already know this. Ipecac syrup and a plant identification guide.... (you see where this is going don't you) +1 on the benadryl also. Tweezers for splinters. Also, please pack an asprin tablet. It's NOT for the kids, but it's for the other hiker you come across who is having chest pain or stroke symptoms (or even you!). It can be a real life saver. Everyone, should pack asprin in their kit. Even if everyone in your party is 20 years old, it can save someone else's life. Off_Route

I'm not familliar with some of the climbing terms in use. This is partly because I grew up climbing in 'stralya where they talk funny, and also because some of the terms may be new since I was last climbing frequently. So what exactly is alpine climbing? I thought it meant that you are going up a mostly 3rd and 4th class route to a summit with "occasional" 5th class parts requiring minimal gear and rope. I'm confused because I heard someone call the Bukley route on Liberty Bell an alpine climb. Isn't that just multi-pitch trad??? Off_Route

What are the, say three pieces, that you always seem to place, no matter where you're climbing? For extra points, what are the top three passive only pieces that you always seem to place? (or do some people not even place 3 pieces of passive pro anymore.....?) Off_Route

Or you could drill another hole...... I once new a guy that had OCD so bad he insisted on calling it DCO. Off_Route

This sounds enticing... Yes, it does doesn't it. Pitch after pitch of jug-haulin' and pro-pluggin'. Makes me want a ham sammitch.... Might have to hit that up one day. Off_Route

I want to get some gear-practice trad leads under my belt and am looking for some easy grades where I won't be too worried about falling. I'm thinking 5.6 or less, and the easier the better (assuming that doesn't mean the danger of decking onto a ledge 5 times per pitch. Where in the Western Washington area are the good easy trad leads that can happily gobble up a bunch of practice gear? I live near mount Eerie, so bonus points are awarded to those that suggest the climbs near my area. I have the book "Weekend Rock" and it's nice because it has lots of 5.10 climbs or less, but lists far more sport than trad routes and doesn't always give much of a g-pg-x type protection rating. I've also seen that there are areas not even covered in his book, like the rocks in the Bellingham area. Beta appreciated! Off_Route

Nice to hear another opinion on the same piece of gear. Mine has been used 6 times or so and is holding up well so far, but hasn't been through the test that my mountain hardware tent has. Can I ask which parts of the tent failed on you? It'll help me know which parts are vulnerable and what to watch out for. Off_Route

I'll also add 2 more ideas to the brainstorm that I have NO FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE WITH: Used (or new) 3layer genuine Gore-Tex bivy sacks can be had used for very cheap. They also are camo, but you said you would never poach.... A cheap experiment and it's real gore-tex. Reviews say you get wet if you don't seam seal. Duh..... 3 Layer Gore Tex Bivy $90 new, cheaper new and used on Ebay Another idea is a "Hennessy Hammock" or other hammock options. There are many home-made and commercial variations ou there and there is a cult of followers and forums to look at if you go this route. I would hope that these folks have figured out a way to rig these like a bivy bag if there are not 2 suitable trees around.... As a plus, you already know 100times more about rope work than most hammock users. Off_Route

Oh! Oh! Oh! Me first! Pick me! I am a convicted gear whore of the first order when it comes to tents as you describe. I could even be accused of being a gear tester using a combination of REI's return policy and selling old tents. I have owned and used (extensively) 7 tents that would fit your criteria and boy do I have a solution for you. Here's what I've owned and used: Sierra designs flashlight (this is back before vestibules existed) This tent made me swear that I would never buy another tent without a vestibule and would never EVER buy a non-free standing tent. When you're bivying on a ledge and you can't stretch out a tube tent, you have a tarp. If it's free standing, you can squish it up and mangle it but it will still have a roof. Bibler tripod bivy. I'm not a claustrophobe so I could hang out and read in this one, but after spending 24full hours in it avoiding mozzies I was going crazy. I needed something I could sit up in and wait our the PNW rains. REI convert mountain: Zippers that turned the inside wall from mesh to regular tent material. Supposed to "convert" it from a 3-5 season. Stupid idea. Heavy. REI 2 person (can't recall the name). 4 of us in our first month of college, 2 nights 2 bottles of vodka sleeping in a big pile and we only left the tent to pee. Fond memories of a mediocre tent. Sierra Desins Astro CD: Man, what a great tent, especially for rainy weekends or snow. God I miss that tent (lost it to psyco G/F in a breakup) I think it is a 3-4man tent fly with a 2 man tent inside it. It has an extra full size pole for the vestibule. The vestibule is H-U-G-E and that is what makes this tent great. There is easily enough for 2 to sleep but no more space than 2 ridge rests. You don't need any more space in the tent though because of the acreage under the vestibule. You can easily cook in a storm or in the snow and there is lots of room for your wet, muddy, snow covered gear and still room to cook. Great tent. Atko Hilleburg shelter: This was recommended already by another poster. Didn't own this one but used it a dozen times in high-school. These are pretty standard fare in Australia. They're simple and good, but aren't free standing. Deal breaker for me. Kelty Dart 2: This is a hoop tent that is more like a bivy bag than a real tent, but it has a vestibule, sleeps 2 and is about 9' long (so you can put your packs at your feet) and it weighs under 2 lbs! What a PIECE OF $HIT! I now KNOW about condensation in 1 wall tents without adequate ventilation. Even on dry temperate nights you wake up soaked. Used it 3 times and gave it away. It was so crap that I couldn't even charge for it. Mountain Hardware Mountain Jet 3: WOW, now THIS is a good tent. It's single wall and they've done the vents right. Minimal to no condensation in all weather. Used it on 3 continents and it has withstood hurricane force winds for 36hrs straight without damage. (We were camped at Capa Alava during the biggest storm to hit Washington in 20years. Hurricane ridge recorded a 98MPH gust that night) It's light, not very expensive, the vents work great and it's bomber. If I had it to do over I would buy the 2 man. I bought the 3 man because it was only 6oz more and I figured "why not" but it turns out that it's the same fly and you sacrifice a vestibule on one side. I would rather have the 2.5man space of the 2 person on the inside and 2 good vestibules. I've also used the Macpac olympus in school on a 14day hike. Bomber, heavy, simple, not free standing. Expensive too. Now for my recommendation for you, and it might suprise you. This tent: A Eureka! tent?? Are you kidding me?? is actually an AWESOME 1 man tent. A friend had the 2 man version and after much inspection by me, interrogation of the users, and my checking it for condensation each morning after they slept in it, I took the plunge. Wow, I never thought I'd buy a Eureka tent for backpacking. Kelty was a low enough bar and look how that turned out.... This tent is AWESOME. It's a 1 man that pitches instantly, is freestanding, has great ventilation and no condensation issues, is lighter than the spec weight because I think you get steel tent pegs and they want you to use 10 of them. You actually only need 6 and who doesn't have aluminum pegs laying around. It's got a vestibule on each side, and is tall enough for a 6'+ person to sit up in comfortably. I've been in a couple Olympic rainstorms and it was nice to be able to pitch this puppy in seconds and once inside have plenty of room to hang out sitting up in my therm-a-rest chair, and cook in the vestibule. If you can stand the extra weight the 2 man has one great feature and that is that both vestibules have full inside access. To save weight, on the 1man the second vestibule only has a small crappy zipper, and the other is full access. I end up putting my pack in the one with the crappy zipper, and I can still get at things in my pack through said zipper, but the pack has to go in from the outside. Annoying. If I ever learn to sew I'm going to extend that zipper. Other than that annoyance the tent is awesome and is just the right amount for 1 person. The other vestibule could be a little more cooking-friendly for true storm conditions, but I've always been able to make it work. It's also really cheap, which is nice. One word of caution I guess. I've read lots of reviews where people said they got wet with this tent. Twice I've pitched it in a place that became a lake. Never had any water come in. You DO have to seam-seal it when you buy it, but we're smart enough to know that about modern tents aren't we? Take a chance on the Eureka Zeus 1LE solo and I bet you won't be disappointed. If you are for some reason, it's a cheap mistake. (bought mine for $99 from campmor.com). The newer Zeus has entry on the smaller wall and a redesigned vestibule. I doubt I'd like that one as much because it's really nice to have 2 vestibules and 2 entrances where you can pile one with gear an the other is for entry/exit, boots, and cooking. I hope that helps! (what did I tell you about convicted tent gear geek/whore?) Off_Route

Well I just answered my own question with this link: Data HERE I now know why climbers shouldn't use Vectran rope, though it is definitely not for the reasons I though it would be. The link above is a pretty good set of data on different cord strengths and different knot strengths IN DIFFERENT TYPES OF CORD. It's good data, and it makes me like good old nylon even more than I already did. Off_Route

Interesting. It looks a lot like the trango alpine equalizer, only it's home made from off the shelf parts and it can be un-made into it's useful component parts. Nice. I will study this further. Off_Route PS Since I'm a sailor and lived on a boat for the last 11years I am fairly familiar with rope, and own about a mile of it. Any of you climbing types ever consider using some of the high-tech sailing cordage out there? For a cordalette/equalette where you don't need the dynamics of a lead climbing rope there is some REALLY strong/light/small stuff out there and some of it will even hold a knot! Check out this stuff for example: 22KN breaking strength, 5mm diameter, 9grams/foot and designed to last in the harshest environment for years (and withstand lots of UV). Holds knots too. Sailing cordage

Wow, thanks Chirp! Nice to see instruction manuals that actually had useful information instead of fine print legal disclaimers... Off_Route

What??!! I thought that the way it works is you pays your money for a screamer, clip it on, and if you fall then John Yates Himself will reach down from the heavens and catch you on a downy soft pillow. Seriously though, while I do think they are a really great innovation and a well made piece of kit, your point is well taken. Off_Route

This is exactly what I am hoping to be able to do. To be able to look at my 4KN Wild Country nut that I always seem to be able to find a spot for and think, "The rock's solid, the placement is good, and there is a lot/little rope out so it is decent/marginal/needs a screamer." In order to be correct in my abstract/intuitive assumptions I wanted to ground myself in some numbers rather than ground myself with a few falls. The leaders I climbed with would never talk numbers but would rather say "that little wire might hold ya' but I wouldn't count on it." I'd still like to know some more of the numbers behind placing marginal pro so that I can add it to my "intuitive equation" on the rock. Off_Route

I clicked the feet buttons. For a 185lb climber try these two: 35ft of rope out and 15ft above last piece. (add rope stretch and a runner and you're inches from decking) 6.7kn according to the machine and a FF of 1.4. Now try 185lbs, 135ft of rope (getting close to the top of your 50m rope) out and 15ft above last piece. Machine says 5.2KN and a FF of 1.1. How about 185lbs, 135ft of rope and ONE foot above your last piece (ie you're holding it and it's on a short draw) 4.7kn and a FF 1.0 That's not much variation between nearly decking from a 30ft whipper with little rope out and "falling" one foot with your whole rope out to catch/stretch you. Also, shouldn't the 1 footer on a long rope be a FF of less than 1.0? Something doesn't seem right. The other problem is that this calculator (like many others) calculates forces on the CLIMBER during a fall. So in theory the piece above should get between 100-200% of the calculated figures though I can't find a reliable number for the "pulley effect" or "friction coefficient" to use for calculating that top piece force from the climber force numbers. From memory of many years ago it was something like 1.6x. By the calculations produced from this website it appears that my 4KN wire wouldn't hold a 1ft fall with my whole rope out. Better not use it at all.... Also my regular nuts, even in the largest size are rated to 10kn which would regularly be snapping in half from more severe falls. Off_Route

Ziplock bags, purple latex gloves? Looks kinda methy around there. Sketchy yes. Love the razor blade on the table . I know battery acid is bad, but do you think exposure to meth would degrade dyneema slings? :-) Off_Route

I played around with that calculator and it seemed like no matter what extremes I put in the fall was always 6KN +/- 0.5KN. That didn't seem right to me.... Off_Route

With an appropriately fitting harness, the forces on your piece during a fall shouldn't be..... oh, wait, not that piece. I've searched and searched and can't seem to find a clear answer to the question of how much force does one usually expect will be exerted on the top piece of gear during a leader fall. I am aware that there are a bunch of variables and most of the discussions I have read are focused on either the maximum possible forces, forces on the rope or climber, or extreme situations. What force (or more likely range of forces) can one expect from your "average to bad" trad lead fall? Say a factor 0.5 25 footer or so. What about a smaller fall say a 10-15foot fall towards the end of the rope with a very low fall factor? I think it is a relevant question because it can help one judge just how thin of pro can be used in a given situation (micro nuts or TCUs anyone?) and when would it be appropriate to attach a screamer. For example, I have a #0.5 wild country nut that I like but it is rated for 4KN. I have 2 other nuts I use often that are rated for 6kn. Would the forces in my expected falls be >4kn or >6kn, what about if I attached the screamer? Any help in this area, with example calculations, educated guesses or links would be appreciated. Off_Route

I grew up trad climbing in Australia in the 90s where bolts were something only occasionally seen as a rap anchor and the standard rack looked like this: 2-3 sets of nuts 1 Full set of slung hexes up to #9 or #10 3-6 cams Lots of knotted slings and loose biners I recall only once or twice seeing tricams hanging on a rack and wondering WTF are those things. I've played with them in the shop once or twice but have never climbed with anyone that uses them. On the interwebs it seems there are TWO opinions. There are those who use them and love them (and have an odd affinity towards the color pink) and there are those that HAVE NOT USED them and don't like them. My question: I know there are many supporters, but is there anyone out there THAT HAS USED THEM and decided after using them for a while THEY DON'T LIKE THEM? If you used them and didn't like them, and ended up ditching them from your rack, tell us why. Everyone else seems to be converted once they drink the pink Kool-Aid..... Off_Route

Interesting turn of discussion.... Personally I don't believe in autoblocks myself, and have never owned a car with antilock brakes. Actually, I don't much like driving cars built after 1990. I belay with a stitch plate and still regard the ATC as "new". I still regard the GriGri with a jaundiced eye, not just because it's mechanical when it doesn't need to be, but because it takes a perfectly dynamic belay and makes it static. I'm interested in the new technique of the cordalette and appreciate the discussion so far in this thread. John long's books are good for the general pros and cons but I like how some here have pointed out that they are good for certain climbs but not others (ie if you can expect bolted anchors). Off_Route

What you say makes a lot of sense to me. I was also thinking that it would make a fine rap/bail piece of gear, so maybe it's not a totally dedicated piece. I'll have to play around with the concept at ground level and see if I even like this new-fangled idea first. Since I'm a sailor, I'm sure I can scare up some rope to play with somewhere.... Off_Route

I've been looking at BD neutrinos for racking my cams. They conveniently come in all the colors my cams are in, are cheap (must be cheap!), light and wire-gated (which I like). Problem is that I've gotten spoiled by key-gates. My older pin-gate biners bug me when I rack and unrack them. How are the neutrinos? Is the gate as bad as regular old biners for snagging on the nose or is it a little less snaggy? Off_Route

Nice tip. My buddy carried it as a big wad at the back of the harness. Seems like 2 big knotty wads could really get in the way especially in an offwith or chimney. Off_Route

Searched the web everywhere and can't seem to find that brand! Got a link? Does "Technique tape" come in hot-pink? I want it to match my harness. :-) Thanks for all of the useful suggestions. Since I work in medicine and do wear surgical gloves at work AND wash my hands about 30 times a day they are not exactly leather-bound. Combine that with a skin condition that thins them further, and anyone following me up a crack climb should have a matching blood type to mine. I've never seen those hand-jammies before but for my skin I might have to give them a try. I assume nobody makes/uses a glove for climbing that also covers the palm? Seems like it would be hard to make that work. Off_Route

I'm not exactly new to climbing, but I am new to some of the more modern techniques, so this section seemed like the best place for my question. Do you take 2 cordalettes with you on a multi-pitch climb? It seems so me that if you're using one for your anchor on the top of pitch 1 it will stay there while you climb up pitch 2. At the top of pitch 2 you will need another anchor and thus another cordalette. I've climbed with a buddy who carried one and used it, but we were at index and vantage only doing 1-2 pitch climbs on those days and there were often fixed anchors at the top of the second pitch. If you do need to carry 2, then isn't 2 big wads of 7MM rope a lot more bulky than a few double and shoulder length runners? Off_Route