Rad
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Posts posted by Rad
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I think it's inevitable that these devices cause us to alter our risk assessment when we're in the field. That's not good or bad, it just is - and I'm guilty of it too. Pushing the envelope more because you expect them to work, and then finding out that they don't, can put you in a real bad situation.
We wrote about that in the Northwest Mountaineering Journal recently.
Climber 9-1-1 article on communication devices
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From his blog:
Now it’s going to get a little controversial: In both of the accidents above (Jack Tackle and Carlyle Norman) good communications might have made a difference to if not the outcome then certainly the process and speed of response. Maybe nothing would have made a difference, but risks were taken and decisions made that good communications would have helped resolve faster, or at least reduce risks. I think that if you’re out in the mountains today without a Spot/DeLorme InReach (which was supposed to show up around here for a review two months ago?), satellite phone, appropriate radio or cell phone then, bluntly, you’re making a serious error and being an ass. In today’s world rescuers are going to come for you; if you can give a clear location then they will waste less time finding you, and put themselves at less risk. A Spot declares an emergency and provides a location, a very good start to being rescued efficiently. that. Two climbers were recently rescued off the top of the Goodsirs; I spoke with the guy doing the rescue, a friend of mine, all he knew was a GPS location from the Spot; he flew in, there they were, boom, off the mountain. There are problems with Spots, mainly that the communication isn’t two-way, but as any SAR person will tell you, finding the person quickly is the start of a successful rescue.
A Spot weighs very little, and I don’t generally head into the hills without mine now. But if I do then I’m in an area with good cell service, and keep the phone well charged. If there is no cell service then the choices are a Satellite phone or a radio. Radios take more knowledge to use (repeaters, frequencies, etc etc), but have some strong benefits, mainly on-going communication with the rescuers when they are close. Satellite phones also allow two-way communication, work anywhere (or almost anywhere), and are getting increasingly cheap to buy and operate.
No one tool is perfect, but the ability to declare an emergency and give a precise location is essential not only to the victim but also to those attempting to do the rescue. Full stop. I don’t want to even hear arguments about ethics and rescue etc. etc., in today’s world a rescue will be mounted, let’s keep it simple so it costs less, reduces risk to the rescuers and cuts trauma time for the family and friends down even if the person is dead. And if it saves the victim’s life then that’s a bonus. Most of the arguments around not bringing communications centre on the victim; don’t be a selfish victim, communicate.
So, take care, don’t have accidents, but if you do have minimal but effective communication. I expect this will become the norm shortly, as basic as a headlight in any outdoor user’s pack.
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I did a bit of research on this last year but didn't end up going. I didn't get a response by email so just picked up the phone. The owner answered all of my questions right away.
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I'm not an expert, but it's not too hard to imagine situations (e.g. shifting wind directions, variable cloud cover) where snow stability varies widely within a small area. So no matter what the forecast or hazard rating is one needs to assess the local terrain carefully.
Perhaps ice climbing, another sport I haven't taken up due to time constraints and concerns about objective hazards, shares this feature.
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Galcier skills are best learned in a course or workshop, though you can practice some items straight out of FOH with a few friends.
Another way to gain experience is by going on non-technical outings and gradually head into steeper and more rugged terrain. You don't have to be on Mt Rainier to practice self-arresting. Buy the Scrambles book and go when conditions allow. Start logging some miles. Hook up with like-minded partners. The Mounties are made for people like you, but there are other ways to go too. It all depends on your personal style. The bushwhackers are good peeps BTW.
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Many good comments and resources above.
Nobody believes they'll land on the wrong side of statistics, and that's part of the problem. Just ask what cancer docs hear from patients, what search and rescue teams hear from their subjects, and what lottery ticket buyers have to say. Unfortunately, many people search for the data that support the conclusions they've already made rather than absorbing the data with an open mind and seeing what conclusions it leads them to make.
I read once that a 12 foot fall has a 50% chance of killing you.It's not the fall that kills you. It's the sudden stop.
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As a courtesy, the other thread should be limited to condolences and a celebration of the lives of those lost in recent avalanches at Stevens and Alpental.
This one is a place you might explore the ideas you've been incubating.
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Context: in this arena I am very conservative and rarely head into the backcountry because I am anxious about avalanches and recognize that I don't have the skills or knowledge to be confident I can make the right decisions to avoid making a fatal error. This means I miss some fantastic experiences, I'm sure, but I'm willing to make that trade-off.
My thoughts are that the risks of backcountry skiing and boarding can be very high at times, but part of the essence of those experiences, like others in climbing, is that each person takes responsibility for his or her own actions and accepts the consequences without blaming others. IMHO, every aspect of our society could use more of this attitude of assuming responsibility. I just hope it doesn't result in more lives lost. But it will.
Personally, I was impressed with the airbag system that supposedly saved the life of one of the Stevens party. It would seem (again from my uneducated perspective) to be far more useful than an avy beacon. That said, it could create a false sense of security. It's not going to save you if you're swept over a large cliff as apparently happened in the Alpental accident. It's not going to protect you from slamming into trees or other obstacles at high speed. It's probably not going to prevent you from being injured or killed during the slide, particularly a wet/heavy slide. But it might greatly reduce the chance you'll be buried in a slide.
This is an excellent scientific article on the impact of safety training on avalanche-related accidents: Avalanche safety article
Live your life with open eyes.
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I was diagnosed with mild early DC a few years ago. Supposed to be hereditary but one wonders if climbing has an impact. Doesn't hurt or interfere with climbing or other activities. Yet.
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Good thread and an interesting article. A few thoughts:
I agree with JH that risks can be divided into external/objective ones (e.g. avalanche, rockfall) and internal/subjective) ones (immediate human error). I stick to rock climbing because I believe it contains far fewer objective risks than ice or alpine climbing.
But as some have said, managing risk and overcoming fear are integral to the climbing experience.
The Climber 9-1-1 article has a section on risk management that was interesting to research and you might find worth reading. http://mountaineers.org/NWMJ/10/101_Rescue2.html
Part of the message is that the perception and management of risk goes far beyond climbing. It is part of the human condition.
For better or worse, the vast majority of humans, regardless of political inclincations and educational achievements, make decisions first and then seek evidence to rationalize and justify these decisions.
Add to this the fact that almost everyone overestimates their own abilities and you have a recipe for bad decisions.
There is no one-size-fits all answer. We each must choose our own path and live or die with the consequences. I just hope you all make your choices with your eyes wide open.
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If you're passionate about Chem choose the best program you can get into and deal with the 2 years or so it takes to get through. Then you're more likely to get a quality job in a place where you want to live afterward. If you're not passionate about school then you'll be wasting your time and money. Better to find something you are excited about. Life's too short to be chasing the wrong dream.
BTW, UW has a great Chemistry program, not to mention ChemE.
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Lizard at GNS is great fun, but it's not continuous. There is one mandatory fist jam on p1. P2 you can get by with some liebacking. P3 is flaring chimney. P4 is undercling/lieback to hands. All pitches are really short. In fact, you can TR the entire thing with 2 60s on the chains at a belay up on GNS.
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Best if you have insurance. They have a PT group as well as the surgery side. I've had them do evaluations of two injuries. Neither needed surgical intervention, thankfully. Good luck.
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Looks great, Mike! See you on the flip side.
R
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Lama has realized a bold vision and made an impressive mark on CT history. I am duly impressed.
The US climbing community should stop bashing him and instead take Kennedy and Kruk to task for unilaterally acting against the will of the CT climbing community in stripping off all of those bolts. Mark me, I would have wanted to strip the bolts too, but I wouldn't have done it knowing the climbing community had agreed to keep them there. Channeling Ken Nichols is not the answer.
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Awesome outing. Thanks for posting. It's cool to see photos of what that area looks like up close.
It looks like winter is a reasonable time to go. After the snow melts it's a prickly jungle up that way.
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Good style and good judgement. Kudos.
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1. be around ME
2. talk about ME
3. feed ME
4. complain about how fat ME is.
5. tell those who care about ME
6. tell people who don't care about ME
7. buy gear for ME
8. talk about ME gear
9. ME
10. ME
11 and finally, more ME
That's what Facebook is for, Gene.
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Create my own blog so I can chest beat as much as the majority of people who have posted on this thread...
5.7? 5.9? 5.12? 5.14? Who cares? Grades don't matter.
It's about passion, perseverance, and personal growth.
Those who set ambitious goals and dedicate themselves to trying to achieve them just might, against all odds, succeed.
Those who don't surely won't.
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We're just sharing the stoke here.
I hope you find fulfillment in pursuing your own dreams, whatever they may be.
Peace.
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Awesome Sol. I hope we'll connect for some climbing somewhere - maybe Little Si. One route there on my list that's in your range is Bust the Rhythm (12c).
I also hope you and others will climb Skullduggery at X38 (mid-12?). It's a fantastic route.
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Still making the list, but it will include:
1 - Get/stay fit and avoid injury.
2 - Give my best shot on a dream project beyond my abilities.
3 - At least one crag route FA.
4 - At least one alpine route FA.
5 - Get the kids climbing a few times.
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Someone to talk about the role of Mt Rainier providing a training ground for bigger mountains? I think we need to move fast while the public's attention is on the matter.
OW, yes it's a bandaid, but part of what is provided is the idea that a lot of people care and are willing to dip into their own resources to help a little bit. Our world could use more of that.
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I like the idea of a memorial fund. Ambivalent about a memorial climb, UNLESS it is used as a way for us all to raise more $ from sponsors to augment the memorial fund.
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RIP Ranger Anderson. What a tragedy. Alex, a fund for her kids is an excellent idea. IMHO we should contribute it as "the climbing community". This would have the added benefit of sending a good message to the surviving rangers and others.
Clearly, justice needs to be served, but I think there are two lives lost here. We don't have the full story, but this young man apparently served our country in Iraq, suffered PTSD and depression as a result, and probably was not given the medical care he needed to safely re-enter society. If our government fails thousands of vets in this way is it surprising that a number of them commit suicide and some snap and commit horrible crimes? I hope someone will take a hard look at the VA. There's much more to the other side of this story than we've been told.
Gadd on communication devices
in Climber's Board
Posted
One problem with a radio is that you need someone listening on the other end. So in each area you enter you need to know what frequency to use to reach someone.