Sloth_Man

Anybody who thinks that runouts are old school doesn't climb much of a variety of routes. There are so many routes I can think of that require some kind of climbing above gear. If you don't have the presence of mind to deal with it 'cause you've been toproping yourself up sport routes all along then you're gonna have trouble with probably 50% of the trad routes out there. Then how's ya gonna brag to your friends when your normally 5.11 sport ass can't even deal with a 5.8? Sheesh get out and do some real routes

Ok how many times have you placed gear that you were pretty sure would fail in a fall but fooled yourself into thinking it was good enough to continue upward. I've done this many times, and each time I wonder if I shouldn't be leaving the gear out so I know for sure what kind of fall I'm looking at rather than luring myself into more trouble. In these situations I climb more carefully knowing the gear is bad, but maybe not as carefully as I would if I didn't put the gear in. It seems like marginal gear could be more dangerous than no gear at all if you're playing this game. But then again I've had a small stopper halfway in a crack catch me, and a TCU in a shallow flare catch me. Both of those placements I would have expected to fail, so maybe the marginal gear is the way to go. Hmm.... Interesting to ponder while you're doing it though. But if it's a flake that's going to break off I would hope that I could avoid putting pro behind it.

Second ascent has a great selection of boots. I'd go there first.

Couldn't resist that one. Way too wide open.

I've read the political threads with some interest. I can say that for the most part folks here seem to be civil enough. Of course since I'm a pinko lefty it seems like the right wingers are quicker to come out with the 'you're stupid' or 'so what' kind of things. I do find it alarming how the major media sources abandoned the Iraq story and the whole WMD question as soon as the bulk of the shooting was over. I also think it's alarming how the whole behind the scenes with Bechtel etc.. is glossed over if covered at all, while some stupid harmless scandal like the Postmaster crap, or something more prurient like the Lacy whatsher name crap gets full 'all channel' coverage. There's definitely the appearance of complicity between the major media outlets and the shrubbery. It's got to be more than oversight when the shrubberies bogus leaks are spewed out big time with waving flags and shit, but the retraction three days later is in the little print scrolling accross the bottom. Well whatever, it's all the same old same old, but I don't see how Clinton keeps coming up. It reminds of the Reagan/Bush years when the 'conservatives' kept blaming Carter for shit 12 years after he left office. Can we get beyond that? He was a slimy bastard just like the rest of em Ok? Not a liberal, not an environmentalist, not a progressive, not a friend of the common man, just a slimy bastard that's passed from the scene, so can we put 'it' behind us allready, and address the current issues? Bringing up Clinton over and over again really sounds like 'conservatives' who don't have any response to many legitimate questions trying to sidetrack discussions into shouting matches and URL wars.

Another sport guy overcompensating. Just can't handle the fact that sport 10c is trad 9+. But just for grins. If the crack of fear is trad 5.10 then tell me about a comparable sport climb.

Oh well. No big deal, but it would've been interesting to hear. I guess since you guys are all highly trained mounties you've never done anything stupid for us to read about.

Not only must your colored biners match the draws, your harness, your rope, and your shoes, but it must match your lycra as well. I can't believe you guys forgot about the lycra!! A person simply can't climb without jiggley ass cheeks and a codpiece showing shiney in some tiger stripe lycra.

One time my budy Mike and I did a multi pitch 5.8 at Josh (don't remember the name, but it's popular). After leading the second 5.8 pitch he gets to the top and realizes he didn't double back his harness. I know he wasn't on belay, but I wonder to what extent was I on belay?? My episode was on a manky sport route at Williamson. My buddy of the time was chatting with his girl friend while belaying me, so I thought I'd teach him a lesson. I topped out clipped the anchors and jumped off. Well he didn't exactly have a good hold on the belay and dropped me about 40 or 50 feet. He had one of them funky belay devices and the rope just ran through his hand and through the device until he let up his hand and the device caught me about five feet from the ground. Talk about two potential Darwin awards candidates. Ok, so I've confessed. Let's here 'em.

I can climb 5.10 sport routes but struggle and epic on 5.9 trad. What's up with that. My buddy Dave says that's because the kind of climbing people used to do is so different than what they do now, and that 5.9 trad was as easy for them as 5.9 sport is for me. I'm not buying it. I think sport routes are rated wrong.

I was wondering where I thought I'd learned that thing about the slipping, and I really don't remember. But the deal about the bowline being one of the strongest knots is true and can be read in any sailors book of knots. In the old days bowlines were used routinely. Just look at old photos of Chuck Pratt (I know 'who the frick is that?'). So climbers started out using the bowline. I don't know when it started to change. It was always my understanding that they went to the figure eight because the bowline didn't absorb any force by slipping. For what it's worth I've seen bowlines slip through with several inches of tail when loaded hard on a sailboat, so it wouldn't surprise me to see a figure 8 do the same. Always tie in the back up, even on the bowline.

The bowline is one of the strongest knots. I think the strongest is the fishermans bend or some such (not the figure 8). The reason the figure 8 is preffered in climbing is because it slips. In this slipping much force is dissipated, thus softening the fall. This is also the reason you should be backing up the knot with a rolling hitch. I've seen many people just tie a figure 8 with 6 inches of tail or so. This has always worked for them, so they figure it's Ok, but it's not. Sure it works for short falls, but take that huge 50 ft whip and it'll slide right through. A bowline doesn't do that.

Thanks for the help guys. I'll take my soloist so I can rap off and second some things myself. Are the easier routes a gumby scene? During the week shouldn't be a problem I would think. Down in Josh you could never get on anything easier than 5.8 on weekends, but weekdays were wide open. Is there camping in the park? I'll go get a guide book tonight.

My partner for the Yosemite trip backed out. So it's either go to the valley and look for a partner or do something else. If I went to city of rocks would it be too hot? My belayer/partner would be a 10 year old kid. Are there 5.6/7's in any number there? Are there harder things that I could climb and then lower off to clean? One of the biggest problems I have at Josh is the tops are all rounded and there's no anchors so almost every climb has to be seconded. But it's asking too much to drag a kid up 5.9 cracks. Just one of those and he'd be done for the whole trip. City of rocks looks very similar. Thanks in advance

I think the subjectiveness of grades doesn't get enough attention. I've seen a lot of taller guys reach right past hard spots then come away saying the climb was 5.whatever. But I know it was harder for me, and yet still gets the same 5. whatever grade. Cracks are really subjective. I'm good at wedging stubby body parts into cracks, but if you're small or boney a crack I think is easy could be real hard. Small cracks are the worst. For me every finger crack is 5.impossible, but for a girl the same crack might be more doable. For example the Incredible (not-a)handcrack was real hard for me, but someone with smaller hands would get killer jams and call it 'not to bad'. Yeah grades are subjective, but they're like colors. Sure you're green might be my orange, but as long as we agree to call it green then everythings Ok. It doesn't matter so much what the objective truth is as much as where we fit in to the scheme of things so we can avoid getting in over our head.

There were a couple of 5.6 offwidths I couldn't do in Veedavu. There's the 5.7/8/9 chimney on the triple direct. Still the hardest 5.7/8/9 I've done. For a real test piece I think it shouldn't be a sandbag. Goliath at Suicide is a testpiece 5.7 chimney. Sampson right next to it is a good 5.7 testpiece with a 5.9pg mantle at the top. Serpentine next to that is a good 5.9 slab testpiece. Seems like all the routes at castle rock are sandbags not testpieces. Let's see.... Werks up in Eldo Canyon is probably a testpiece 5.8. As is the Bastille crack next to it at 5.7. The 5.8 pitch on White Punks on Dope at the needles is probably a test piece. The headwall pitch on the South Face of Warlock needle is a 5.7 testpiece once you've pulled the 5.9/10a crux at the bottom. Chrimson Chrysalis has some 5.8 testpiece pitches on it (wow does it get any better than that?). There's so many more I just haven't worked up the ball sack to climb yet. Like: The Crack of Fear. Anything at Indian Creek. Entrance Exam and Midterm at Yosemite, or should I say everything in the valley except for the easy ones like Nutcracker. I think a test piece should be close to a full ropelength, taking natural pro or having pg runouts on bolts. It should be continously difficult at it's rating. It needs to challenge the climber physically and mentally.

The fact that some you (perhaps mounties yourselves) feel the need to ridicule my own opinions shows the very attitude that is so objectionable, and that you yourselves seem to be busy complaining about. A more mature response would be "hey we really do annoy a lot of people it seems. Maybe next time we shouldn't take over a whole area." I don't give a rats ass if you guy's want to go toprope the same shit year after year. But since I have an opinion on this, I thought if you cared about your impact on the rest of us you might be interested. But just like the typical mountie 'leader' you guys have to act like I'm insulting your penis size or something. The fact is that large groups bother me. Get it fuck heads, large groups bother me. I don't care if their mounties or loc's or what. But the mounties are the biggest perpetrators. Anyway, I'm outa this thread. I tried to explain what was so annoying about you guys in a reasonable way and got childish and weak grade school comebacks, and no acknoledgment of the validity of the issue or my feelings about it. Typical of mounties to not give a crap what anybody else thinks, and thus the root of the problem and where I started in this "mounties suck". But just in case you're not mounties and there is some hope for you to become climbers let me relate the ethics of climbing in crowded places. Lead, follow, move on. Nobody should have to ask you to remove your rope. If you are slow let others pass. Don't climb in crowded areas with more than four people. Learn how to use your brain cause all them fancy signals aren't worth crap when a dozen people simultaneously shout "off belay", or the wind is blowing or you've turned a roof or whatever.

It was last year in the icicle. I'd taken my 8 yr old son to do the boulder and flake thingy that are down by the road and coveted by the mounties. When I get there I'm immediately ready to turn around and go home, but not knowing where else an 8 year old kid can climb I decide to persevere , even as I'm grumbling aloud walking past the horde. We wiggle onto the boulder in the area that's too hard to do in boots (5.6) and do a little climbing next to a horde of people in boots and gaitors with shorts over their long underwear and gloves (for rappeling?) hanging off their harnesses. When we get bored there I notice a rope has been hanging on the flake thingy unused for some time. So I wander over there and find somebody who looks like a 'leader' (they're easy to spot) I say nicely "are you guys done with that climb, because I'd like to lead it and toprope my son up it". The response is "I don't know let me ask joe" (or whoever). So they go wandering over to the other side of the road to find joe and see if I'll get permission to do the climb. They come back and say 'yeah we're done with it'. So I lead toprope the kid up it and top rope the 5.8 crack next to it. We pull the rope and are getting ready to leave when some 'leader' dude who looks like a fricken cop walks by and say's "I see you got on your route. I heard you talking ealier". To this I have no response other than to look at him with spite. What right do these groups have to put ropes up on things and leave them? What right do they have to decide when I'll be allowed to climb a route that nobody is on? And what right do their fricken testosterone poisoned leaders have pulling attitude on me when they are the ones causing the crowding and the tension, and the whole issue in the first place. I'll tell you this. I'll never treat a group of mounties politely again. I deliberately avoid them now that the kid can do harder stuff, but that doesn't make me hate them any less. The whole attitude that they own the mountains really sucks. I've never met a real climber that had that attitude. Every one is usually laid back and more than ready to give somebody else an opportunity to get on a route. There's simply no defense for the large groups and the 'our crag for the day' attitude. I reaaaaaaaaaally wish these groups would go away. But perhaps the worst thing is they know full well they are despised by the larger climbing community and just carry on. They have no intention of limiting group sizes and finding out of the way areas to climb. And in all my years of climbing these are the only people I've run in to that bum me out. I'll take a horde of boulder'ers, a throng of sport jocks, and gaggle of sandbaggin wall climbers, all drunk and listening to surf punk before I'd chose the company of mounties.

Hey I'm not a good climber or even an average climber. Take a look at my name if you need a clue about my big wall skills. I'm just as stupid as the next guy, but at least I don't travel in packs, and I don't strut around like a rooster every time I lead a 5.6. The fact is those large groups really f'ck up an area. What about other people who want to climb the Tooth this weekend? Shit outa luck cause they'll be all over it for hours and hours. I think any party larger than 4 is pushing it, and if there's four of you you'd better be fast or you're all assholes. Crowding is an issue, or have you wankers never been down to the valley or Red Rocks? Crowding is a big issue. Crowding is a huge issue. These guys aren't helping. There's any number of nameless crags where they can go and practice their skills. When they have some then they can go in groups of two or three and use them on the tooth. There is no need to tie up decent and popular climbs teaching skills that can be learned at the UW rock and Mt Si, or any number of other areas. I think the fact is that the great 'leaders' have only ever done these climbs, so those are the only ones their comfortable on. They just keep going back again, and again, and since it's always with a new batch they get the ego stroke all over again. But the fact is they are lame and stuck in a rut. And as for your posts: is there some school for internet spray monkeys where you types go to learn how to make lame comebacks. I mean c'mon you can do better than that. Sheesh! Sounds the same the WWWeb over.

I remember the pitch after the roof going easy on cams. I don't remember any bashies. They shouldn't be neccesary.

Liberty crack is the easiest climb I've ever done. The roof is cake. The A3 above is A1-. All the free stuff can be pulled through. The block looks geologically loose, but better than many other things I've climbed around. It too is cake. I'd rate it Grade IV 5.7 A1-.

Mounties suck. I don't care what their excuses are for being stupid. It's a distastefull combination of mediocre climbers trying to be cool by 'leading' classes full of wide eyed idiots that'd be better off if they stayed with their shiny cars. I don't go where they go, so I guess I shouldn't care. But the whole descend on the mountains in hordes really rubs me the wrong way. I learned to climb with a handfull of nuts, a book, and the tooth. If those hordes of jokers can't do that much then what are they going to do on a real lead when some ball sack and a smidgen of common sense are required. All that mountie wisdom just slows 'em down and makes 'em too timid to do anything other than lead the next group of wide eyed idiots. Anyway, I'll never understand why some folks feel the need to defend these people. They are a blight on the mountains nothing more. And all the people they are opening the mountains up to need to stay home anyway, they're just future officious little pricks at the head of another throng. Shouldn't they be golfing or something, climbing is dirty and dangerous. Waaaaaaaaay too scary for those suburbanites. Stay home, stay away, be afraid.

"It's caught all my falls, so I've developed trust in it." LMFAO That's one of the funniest things I've ever read. And the alternative would be? "It didn't catch my fall so I post from the afterlife" or "It didn't catch my fall so I live in a wheel chair" or "It didn't catch my fall so I got brain damage and am now so stupid that I still use it" hmm... a whole thread in itself maybe. I'd use a soloist or knots tied in to those "oh so dangerous" locking biners. Using an ascender sounds stupid to me. I realize the soloist is expensive and not as great as a belayer. They're heavy and awkward especially in wide cracks. But they work they're bomber and they're made for the job.

A couple of pins in GD so what's the fricken deal. When you 'oh my god it's a pinner' heads can assure me that you will never reproduce, drive cars, poop in the forest, put bolts on topropable routes, clean cracks, or any number of other high impact activities then I'll take you seriously until then you're full of it and need to get a life. Shit you act as if making that one section of rock just a little easier is somehow the end of the world. Me thinks maybe you've all got to find something else to climb and get over it. Pins are not an issue; crowding, bolts, trails, and parking are the issues. You don't like impact take it up with the mounties and the hordes of boulderers, or better yet stay home and climb in the gym.

Yep