JGowans

See, here we are talking about some issues, and you then have to jump into Ayn Rand's camp and label the rest of the world a bunch of collectivists. Are you trying to imply that the U.S. is the strong Howard Roark that's going against the grain for ideological purposes? Come on man. Your amateur philosophizing is ridiculous to say the least. I didn't read his shit, but being a reader and believer in Ayn Rand's philosophy there is NO way you can make the stretch you made. The U.S. has sold out on it's original principles long ago; more like Peter Keating if we're keeping with the "Fountainhead" metaphor. That's exactly my point. Trying to paint this in terms of Ayn Rand's objectivism versus collectivism is absurd.

You just validated what I've been trying to portray all along Fairweather. You are indicative of the malaise. Because I'm not American, my opinions are worthless and invalid. If America will only listen to fellow Americans, then doesn't that say something as to why we're in the predicament we're in where, quite honestly, the U.S. is becoming increasingly marginalized and alienated on the global stage. It's quite an affront to the many U.S. citizens that do give a shit about the world beyond U.S. borders and care about the sustainability of the globe and the quality of life for this planet's inhabitants.

See, here we are talking about some issues, and you then have to jump into Ayn Rand's camp and label the rest of the world a bunch of collectivists. Are you trying to imply that the U.S. is the strong Howard Roark that's going against the grain for ideological purposes? Come on man. Your amateur philosophizing is ridiculous to say the least.

You do not change the content, merely the tone. Don't take undue credit. While the rest of us can find flaws in the others' arguments, we tend to take it as a whole and deal with it as such. You on the other hand, don't argue the points, but rather the semantics of each and every sentence. That's what I mean about you taking macro-level questions and applying a microscopic perspective. It's complete drivel and not in any way productive to the conversation. It's quite pointless to argue with you because you pick apart single sentences and focus uon the minutia which is neither here nor there. That's all. Cunt.

Incidentally, I've called you names before in other threads. I tried to keep it civil here, and refrained from doing so yet was accused anyway by you. So, I reckon that you're now fair game and I can legitimately call you a ball licker and wish that a plague of locusts would infest your skiddy Y-fronts.

Quite honestly MtnGoat, I don't feel qualified to argue with you. I seemed to understand everyone else's points even though I didn't necessarily agree with them. However, you make some bizarre points, and equally bizarre conclusions, and I am flummoxed as to how I should respond because they are complete and utter incomprehensible codswallop.

It's truly incredible. Here we all are grappling with some fairly macro level questions and issues. Each of us tries to argue our point on the same plane, and along comes MtnGoat at the 11th hour and proceeds to drag the discourse into the most microscopic analysis possible so that the rest of us are left scratching our heads and wondering why Hitler drinking water is analagous to the U.S. refusing to sign human rights treaties. Truly baffling.

You never cease to amaze me MtnGoat with your childish conclusions and gauche forrays into explaining behavioral science or the pitfalls of other ideologies. You like to draw people into the proverbial trees to prevent them from seeing the forest and it's so trite and boring.

Sorry FS, I don't see the flaw in the reasoning. It's an interesting point to see that the U.S. is invariably on a list with "The Axis of Evil" when it comes ot those that refuse to sign human rights and environmental treaties. Why is that relationship flawed?

obviously these 'rogue' nations aren't going to sign any treaty by the western world, so this relationship is kind of ridiculous... So, if the rogue nations lack of penmanship is irrelevant, that leaves the US as the sole dissenter on most human rights and environmental treaties put forth by the international community. While it's certainly their prerogative to dissent, do you see a pattern emerging here? Hmm. If you do, then go and check out the free trade agreements. How many does the U.S. refuse to sign? None?? Isn't that weird?

You see MtnGoat, that's what I and others have been talking about all day. This notion that every nation in the world must fall in line with the U.S. for to dissent is to risk losing the carrot or face being beat with a big stick. There's no effort to understand other positions or to concede that the dissenters may be right sometimes.

I'll refer you to my auto-sig.

You're quite correct. Why then, do we adopt the double standards to this argument as evidenced by the US withdrawing military aid from 50 nations today because they dared to say that they supported an International Court that would not exempt illegal acts by Americans? Just another day at the office really.

You will pay. I will be the one toting the AK-47. Get ready! Nah, not sure if i'll be along for a brew. I may try to make it though.

Just curious Greg, In your opinion, what consitutes anti-American? In saying that I wish some things were different in this country, am I considered anti-American?

HELL YEAH IT IS, THEY ARE THE ENTITIES THAT GIVE US INDUSTRIAL WASTE, BEAURACACY AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER NEAT SIDE BENEFITS OF LIVING IN A MATERIALISTIC WORLD! But at least they provide jobs Only when it suits their needs. They giveth and they taketh away.

I used to think that Big Government was the answer, but GW has done a pretty *masterful* job of creating his own Big Government that he's convinced me otherwise.

Another one...A buddy of mine on my track team (also from Scotland) was in the treatment room. We were chatting away when some big football player came ambling up to us and said, "Say dawg, are y'all talking Brazilian and shit? Y'all look like you're from there." We of course, were talking English (with a funny accent mind you). This is all the more funny in that my buddy is the stereotypical Scotsman that's tall, hairy and red-headed. Another time, we were on the bus coming back from a track meet, and I used to ride with the blacks on my team because the whites were just good old country boys and the women were stuck up southern belles. Anyway, one of the girls started going on about the honkies. I looked at her and said, "hey, watch who you're talking about." to which she replied, "Nah dawg, y'all ain't white, y'alls foreign." Great days. I miss them sometimes.

I once was asked how long it takes to drive to Scotland. This was when I was a student in Louisiana. Also, I was asked if Scotland was a province of Canada or Scandinavia. I once also had someone seem amazed when I was wearing a soccer shirt from back home, that we used the same numerals as the U.S. Needless to say, I had many comments that my English was "pretty good." Most were in Louisiana, but I've also heard that comment up here.

I totally agree. Things are never cut and dry. I was just putting forth a book that I'd read that I thought was worth of discussion. I do believe however, that while the US has done much good, it has also done much harm in bringing us to the current state of affairs where we're a nation culturally marginalized and only interacted with because we are the last remaining superpower and exert huge influence on the global stage with an unbeatable military to back up our brand of diplomacy.

LOL

Isn't it troubling that all felons and those with the same name or DOB as felons were removed from the voters list? Isn't it troubling that the Supreme Court halted the official recount? Again, from "Stupid White Men"... Regarding the oversease votes (which ultimately tipped the scales in GW's favor) - 344 ballots had no evidence that they were cast on or before election day. - 183 ballots were post-marked in the U.S. - 96 ballots lacked appropriate witness info - 169 ballots came from unregistered voters - 5 ballots came after Nov. 17 deadline - 19 overseas voters voted on two ballots. All of these ballots violated Florida law, yet they were all counted.

PP, I'm not intending to spew, merely to promote debate. As to the factuality of the numbers I presented, you and I both know that there's a multitude of ways to present the same numbers yet reach different conclusions. Michael Moore gets his data from a number of sources which he cites but I'm not about to repeat since it's fairly exhaustive.

You mean because of all these military interventions? SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops: 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee. ARGENTINA 1890 Troops: Buenos Aires interests protected. CHILE 1891 Troops: Marines clash with nationalist rebels. HAITI 1891 Troops: Black workers revolt on U.S.-claimed Navassa Island defeated. IDAHO 1892 Troops: Army suppresses silver miners' strike. HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops: Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed. CHICAGO 1894 Troops: Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed NICARAGUA 1894 Troops: Month-long occupation of Bluefields. CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops: Marines land in Sino-Jap War. KOREA 1894-96 Troops: Marines kept in Seoul during war. PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval: Marines land in Colombian province. NICARAGUA 1896 Troops: Marines land in port of Corinto. CHINA 1898-1900 Troops, boxer. Rebellion fought by foreign armies. PHILIPPINES 1898-1910(-?) Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos. CUBA 1898-1902(-?) Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base. PUERTO RICO 1898(-?) Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, occupation continues. GUAM 1898(-?) Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, still used as base. MINNESOTA 1898(-?) Troops: Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake. NICARAGUA 1898 Troops: Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur. SAMOA 1899(-?) Troops: Battle over succession to throne. NICARAGUA 1899 Troops: Marines land at port of Bluefields. IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops: Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region. OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops: Army battles Creek Indian revolt. PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops: Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914-99. HONDURAS 1903 Troops: Marines intervene in revolution. DOMINICAN REP. 1903-04 Troops: U.S. interests protected in Revolution. KOREA 1904-05 Troops: Marines land in Russo-Japanese War. CUBA 1906-09 Troops: Marines land in democratic election. NICARAGUA 1907 Troops: "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up. HONDURAS 1907 Troops: Marines land during war with Nicaragua. PANAMA 1908 Troops: Marines intervene in election contest. NICARAGUA 1910 Troops: Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto. HONDURAS 1911 Troops: U.S. interests protected in civil war. CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops: Continuous occupation with flare-ups. CUBA 1912 Troops: U.S. interests protected in Havana. PANAMA 19l2 Troops: Marines land during heated election. HONDURAS 19l2 Troops: Marines protect U.S. economic interests. NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing: 20-year occupation, fought guerrillas. MEXICO 19l3 Naval: Americans evacuated during revolution. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval: Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo. COLORADO 1914 Troops: Breaking of miners' strike by Army. MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops: Series of interventions against nationalists. HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing: 19-year occupation after revolts. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops: 8-year Marine occupation. CUBA 1917-33 Troops: Military occupation, economic protectorate. WORLD WAR I 19l7-18 Naval, troops: Ships sunk, fought Germany RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops: Five landings to fight Bolsheviks. PANAMA 1918-20 Troops: "Police duty" during unrest after elections. YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops: Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia. HONDURAS 1919 Troops: Marines land during election campaign. GUATEMALA 1920 Troops: 2-week intervention against unionists. WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing: Army intervenes against mineworkers. TURKEY 1922 Troops: Fought nationalists in Smyrna (Izmir). CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops: Deployment during nationalist revolt. HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops: Landed twice during election strife. PANAMA 1925 Troops: Marines suppress general strike. CHINA 1927-34 Troops: Marines stationed throughout the country. EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval: Warships sent during Farabundo Marti revolt. WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops: Army stops WWI vet bonus protest. WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear: Fought Axis for 3 years; 1st nuclear war. DETROIT 1943 Troops: Army puts down Black rebellion. IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat: Soviet Troops: told to leave north (Iranian Azerbaijan). YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Naval: Response to shooting-down of U.S. plane. URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat: Bombers deployed as show of strength. GREECE 1947-49 Command operation: U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war. CHINA 1948-49 Troops: Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory. GERMANY 1948 Nuclear threat: Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift. PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation: CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion. PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation: Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce. KOREA 1950-53 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats: U.S.& South Korea fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, & vs. China in 1953. Still have bases. IRAN 1953 Command operation: CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah. VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat: Bombs offered to French to use against siege. GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat: CIA directs exile invasion after new government nationalizes U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua. EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops: Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners LEBANON 1958 Troops, naval: Marine occupation against rebels. IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat: Iraq warned against invading Kuwait. CHINA 1958 Nuclear threat: China told not to move on Taiwan isles. PANAMA 1958 Troops: Flag protests erupt into confrontation. VIETNAM 1960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats: Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; 1-2 million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in 1968 and 1969. CUBA 1961 Command operation: CIA-directed exile invasion fails. GERMANY 1961 Nuclear threat: Alert during Berlin Wall crisis. CUBA 1962 Nuclear threat: Naval blockade during missile crisis; near-war with USSR. LAOS 1962 Command operation: Military buildup during guerrilla war. PANAMA 1964 Troops: Panamanians shot for urging canal's return. INDONESIA 1965 Command operation: Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing: Marines land during election campaign. GUATEMALA 1966-67 Command operation: Green Berets intervene against rebels. DETROIT 1967 Troops: Army battles Blacks, 43 killed. UNITED STATES 1968 Troops: After civil rights activist King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities. CAMBODIA 1969-75 Bombing, troops, naval: Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos. OMAN 1970 Command operation: U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion. LAOS 1971-73 Command operation, bombing: U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside. SOUTH DAKOTA 1973 Command operation: Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas. MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat: World-wide alert during Mideast War. CHILE 1973 Command operation: CIA-backed coup ousts elected Marxist president. CAMBODIA 1975 Troops, bombing: Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash. ANGOLA 1976-92 Command operation: CIA assists South African-backed rebels. IRAN 1980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing: Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 Troops: die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution. LIBYA 1981 Naval jets: Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers. EL SALVADOR 1981-92 Command operation, troops: Advisors, over-flights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash. NICARAGUA 1981-90 Command operation, naval: CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution. LEBANON 1982-84 Naval, bombing, troops: Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim and Syrian positions. HONDURAS 1983-89 Troops: Maneuvers help build bases near borders. GRENADA 1983-84 Troops, bombing: Invasion four years after revolution. IRAN 1984 Jets: Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf. LIBYA 1986 Bombing, naval: Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't. BOLIVIA 1986 Troops: Army assists raids on cocaine region. IRAN 1987-88 Naval, bombing: US intervenes on side of Iraq in war. LIBYA 1989 Naval jets: Two Libyan jets shot down. VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops: St. Croix Black unrest after storm. PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup. PANAMA 1989-90 Troops, bombing: Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed. LIBERIA 1990 Troops: Foreigners evacuated during civil war. SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets: Iraq countered after invading Kuwait; 540,000 Troops: also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel. IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval, blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes: 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military. KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops: Kuwait royal family returned to throne. LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops: Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising. SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing: U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction. YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval: NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro. BOSNIA 1993-95 Jets, bombing: No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs. HAITI 1994-96 Troops, naval blockade against military government. Troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup. CROATIA 1995 Bombing Krajina: Serb airfields attacked before Croatian offensive. ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops: Marines at Rwandan Hutu refuge camps, in area where Congo revolution begins. LIBERIA 1997 Troops: Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners. ALBANIA 1997 Troops: Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners. SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant. AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies. IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, missiles: Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions. YUGOSLAVIA 1999-? Bombing, missiles: Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. YEMEN 2000 Naval: Suicide bomb attack on USS Cole. MACEDONIA 2001 Troops: NATO Troops: shift and partially disarm Albanian rebels. UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval: Response to hijacking attacks. AFGHANISTAN 2001 Massive U.S. mobilization to attack Taliban, Bin Laden. War could expand to Iraq, Sudan, and beyond. (The first bombing began on October 7, 2001. Several Afghan cities come under aerial attack. The story continues).

This might shed some light on our current policies. Taken from "Stupid White Men" We're number one in millionaires We're number on in billiionaires We're number one in military spending We're number one in firearm deaths We're number one in beef production We're number one in per capita energy use We're number one in carbon dioxide emissions (more than Australia, Brazil, Canada, France, India, UK combined) We're number one in total per capita municipal waste We're number one in hazardous waste produced (by a factor of 20 times our nearest competitor Germany) We're number one in oil consupmption We're number one in natural gas consumption We're number one in the least amount of tax revenue generated (as a % of GDP) We're number one in the least amount of federal and state government expenditure (as a % of GDP) We're number one in budget deficit (as a % of GDP) We're number one in daily per capita consumption of calories We're number one in lowest voter turnout We're number one in number of political parties represented in the lower or single house We're number one in recorded rapes (by a factor of almost 3 times our nearest competitor, Canada) We're number one in injuries or deaths from road accidents (almost twice as many as Canada) We're number one in births to mothers under the age of twenty We're number one in the number of international human rights treaties not signed We're number one among countries in the United Nations with a legally constituted government to not ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of a Child We're number one of known executions of child offenders We're number one in likelihood of children under 15 to die from gunfire We're number one in likelihood of children under 15 to commit suicide with a gun We're number one in lowest 8th-grade math scores We're number one in becoming the first society in history in which the poorest group in the population are children.