billcoe

B-rock: sorry for my pyshchotic attitute about the bolts. In some places there is a big benefit from bolts. Certainly silver bullet, where we were at, which got the bolts with the first ascents and has no/few cracks should have the bolts there. Bluebird had no bolts for over 40 years, had thousands of Toprope and lead ascents and then some bolts pop in - totally and 100 percent needlessly. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=32161&Forum=All_Forums&Words=rocky%20butte&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=32161&Search=true#Post32161 That is an anti-bolt thread linked above. In it, Don Gonthier says " They should be chopped (lead bolts on?) . Along with the new anchors on Vertical Therapy. " I agree with you Joe, you want to chop the bolts at the top of vertical threapy, my vote is do it!!!I would politley suggest that it be carefully crafted so that it looks good: clean and natural without any studs sticking out/mangled crap/rock visible kind of thing. I knew Joe Parsley. Joe could have put in bolts when he FA'ed the thing. He did not. Hell, I lived with Dennis in 1978 when we both were doing construction and in fact later purchased his hand drill. They could have drilled anchor bolts there, they had the stuff to do so. But didn't need too or want to. Years later somebody did add some bolts (higher than the current ones), and I think it might have been Joe who chopped them himself. Years go by and then somebody shows up and sticks in a couple of un-necessary anchor bolts. What can you say? I haven't seen Joe or Dennis for uyears, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't them. (it wasn't Dennis, he quit climbing). So who did it? Why? Most importantly, should they be chopped as Don G. suggests? My vote is yes, but do a competant job. " Thanks Hal, it must be only you and me doing those routes - I solo both those routes to, and keep cleaning them off too. I haven't seen Mike Pajunus for years, but I hope and believe he would want just what both of us want, his routes clean and enjoyed by all. Your expanation was exactly why I put them in. But the glass and shit is still accumulating faster than I can pick it up at the top, and at this point I've almost given up. In either case, I'm not putting in any bolts unless specicially asked by the FA er. Now Kelly has asked me. And I have a rotohammer and stainless bolts I will loan/give him. But those are new routes, and FYI, Kelly is soliciting opinions right now so that he can do what the community wants done. Don't blame me if you haven't been asked yet. kellys the guy with lon red hair and a strageley sort of wispy beard. Great guy, I enjoy his company, say hi if you see him. Thats all I have to say, I don't want a fistfight or a dogfight here. I find myself wrong all of the time, and don't want to be so arogant as to tell anybody that something is BLACK or WHITE. It usually isn't. I have noticed that the longer somebody has been climbing, the less appreciative they are of some newbie trying to make their climbing area over into a climbing gym. This tends to hold true for most climbing areas, Smith being the exception of course. B-rock, what say to Young warriors at Beacon this weekend?

Throw in a few ladders and some Gauliuse cigs, it could amost be France. Current Beacon news, since Beacon Rock Tav burned down, the free pool table at Skamania lodge was a big hit. I wonder if some of us took too much advantage of it. I was having a brew after last weekend Beacon climbing and was dissapointed not to see ANY pool table. They took it out and added more seating.

NO re-bolting at Rocky Butte. I was just out there climbing with some of you guys and no one brought it up. Let me say it now, NO BOLTS. If you feel the need to bolt, show up with a broom, wire brush, and a rotohammer and do a new line. Theres plenty still there. Kelly Warden just cleaned 2 off by Silver Bullet. Then you can bolt all you want, if you are putting in the line. If you want to do something - go get the rest of the trash out of there, both on the ground and the needless anchors which remain. Were any of you who want to put in bolts there at the last Rocky Butte cleanup that Mike organized via the Access Fund? I'm sure you have good intentiona. But NO Bolts, please. Now for some egg on my face action: Hal, you are welcome, that was me. I put those anchor bolts in in both those routes. I realize now that it was wrong to have done so. I have since been talked into the belief that I should not have done that. I won't pull them, and won't begrudge somebody pulling them out, if it was to do over again, I wouldn't put those bolts in. But thats water under the bridge for me. I was wrong. Sorry- Madrone is closed. The Umqua looks like it gonna be closed soon. Ask yourself why. If anybody has on overwelming need, and wants to go drill random bolts, my feeling is go do it in your front sidewalk, backyard or out on the roadway curb by your house- or someplace else. I grew up at Rocky Butte, built my first cabin there in 1966 or so, been shot at by the quarry caretaker and ridden my stingray all through that area with my friends and brothers long before the freeway came in. I have climbed there on and off over 30 years as well. I love that place, condoms broken glass and all. All those climbs are easy and safe to toprope. I set up Bluebird with Crackman last week and had 4 awesome pieces in with a safety rope off the big fir tree as well. If "safety" is the arguement, ie, need those new bolts put back in for safety, them shouldn't we add bolts to all the crack lines at Smith, Beacon, Yosemite and everywhere so gumbys and newbies can stick it safetly on lead? I suspect it is for convienance, not safety. Thats why I added the bolts to the 2 routes just noted, stictly for convineance. But I was wrong to have done so. Chop them if you would like, fine with me. But it would be seriously wrong for any of you to go put bolts in or add bolts as well is my feeling. Please consider your actions. Regards: Bill

Erden: following is my thoughts based on 29 years of climbing. I hope you look at this factor as no one has mentioned it and in my view the most likely factor of this accident. It was the rock. The rock moved. It was not the rope. There was plenty of rope out for a dymanic belay. It was not the pro. The pro was good. It was the rock. It moved. This is my belief. I have several things to say. First: Erden, it sounds like to me that you have done a fantastic job, before during and after. You, and the others who are seeking answers must be providing some comfort to Göran friends and relatives who undoubtedly are feeling beyond terrible over this event. I also want to take a moment to recognise Paul for helping with the process and not simply bootying the pro. Good job to all of you guys looking for answers. I know if there was anything any of us could do for the friends and relatives so far away to ease their pain - we would do it. If I may take a momemt to clarify how many pieces pulled: Göran pulled out 3 of the 4 cams he had in, a #3 red TCU, a #1 red Camalot, and a #3 blue Camalot. 2nd time you add a #2 yellow Camalot to the 3 listed above, it was the second piece he fell onto, the one "where the carabiner broke, that did its job and stayed in the crack." There is a lot of focus on the broken carabiner, but if I understand this, 1 cam pulled out, then the carabiner broke, than 2 MORE cams pulled out????? I find it suspect that even 2 cams could pull, let alone 3. I am surprised no one else questions this. If there is anybody out there who has seen somebody fall and even rip out 2 cams: let that person step forward. When I was guiding, I once lowered off 2 outward bound instructors who had fallen a full ropelength (and died) onto 1 single #2 ridged stem friend that was partially seated in a shallow, rotten seam. I could not see what was holding it in when myself and another guide climbed above them, and we expected it to pop at anytime. Their total weight was @ 300 lbs and they fell approx 150 feet of vertical fatally striking 1 ledge @ 100 foot down. The strength of camming devices is very high. After backing it up, we used that piece to lower them off. Cams also put an incredible force outwards as they are pulled out. I wonder if the column may have actually moved with the sideway forces the cams undoubedly exerted on it. Perhaps some of the engineering inclined up your way could go out to air guitar and check this out. There could be a couple of ways to figure this out, but duplicating the exact force by using a cam would be difficult. One easy way would be to set up a toprope and nail up it. If you can reach below and pull out the last pin that you had smacked in with your fingers: voila, it's an expanding "flake" or column. I normally don't advocate using pitons: but if it is done only once, and can perhaps save another life.....I wholeheartedly encourage it. I don't agree with Mr Chips that we should all just forget persuing the reasons why this may have happened. If the answer is a rational one and it prevents anothers death then we need more speculation, not less. I do not believe that Göran put in 3 or 4 poorly placed cams. It is not believable. I have seen them hold too many times. I could understand 1 cam pulling out, that would be a bad placement. 2, ahhh, maybe, but most likely not possible on a straight up vertical nice to pro crack. 3???? Nahhh. Nope. I would not think bad pro in this instance, I would be thinking moving rock more likely. Lastly: awhile back I was involved in a similar accident at Smith Rocks. We were the only group other than a group of young Canadiens eating at Rudy's mexican place that AM. They were real nice folks, light hearted and we talked with them some over breakfast. No one imagined that within a few hours the young man would auger in from 70 feet up pulling 4 of the 7 nuts he had in (we were on the next route over, but almost 150 feet straight above them at the time). He had followed the route the previous day. On lead, he had gotten tired and fallen about 6 feet onto a piece that held but later pulled. In this tired state, he climbed straight up- off route- instead of to the right where he would have been on route and could have put in more pro. The crack got thin and virtually disappeared as he went up. He fell. The metal clanged and it wounded like a sack of potatoes had smacked hard from up high. We immediatly rapped off to assist. The sounds of his girlfriend screaming and his friends sobbing, and the smell of his breath while unsuccessfully giving mouth to mouth while my friend tried CPR have not left me to this day. Nor will they I suspect. It's been almost 16 years now. High regards Erden: Bill