j_b

material breach! material breach!

quote: Mt Triumph. North Face Central Rib. In Winter.this would be horrendous. At least 10 pitches of compact, 75deg, slabby 5.7 covered with snow ....

quote: The Northwest Face Couloir on Mt. Stuart is supposed to be some kind of old skool classic. Apparentley in the eighties this was a testpiece climb... Considered far more difficult than Triple Couloirs and the like. Anybody done it in the last couple years? has it been done many times? I think it is rarely in shape.

so, would Godzilla be 5.9 if it was half-way up the gendarme on Stuart?

context, precisely. I did not think it had to be explained but here it goes. Your and mtngoat discourse is basically that arabs and palestinians are evil while Israel is a modern parliamentary democracy with a few problems (and therefore they are the good guys). I won't mention you also assert they are morally and historically justified in their doings. I set myself to illustrate the black-and-white, aka binary, nature of your stance by letting some people knowledgeable about the state of Israel tell us what they thought about it and perhaps place actions in Palestine within that context. This approach seems to me a lot more pertinent than any spewing you and I might do on this board. Did I say my intent was to whitewash all arabs of all of their deeds? no. Now if you have any contributions to add which'd counter the points raised in those pieces and notably address the apartheid charges, go ahead. Isolating actions from their historical and contemporary framework via demonizing arabs is precisely what your are doing. So don't talk to me about context. I can also tell you did not read those links very carefully. if I had the time I'd explore the implications of "the State of Israel does not have one single universal citizenship for all of its citizens, Jews and non-Jews alike", or what religious freedom means in a theocracy (nearly) at war with its largest religious minority, but I won't bother because it speaks for itself and in anycase it is well documented in the links mentioned (they are still available). and MtnGoat your opinion that 'human nature' in all of its glory determines the relationship between the state and its citizens with secondary consideration to how technology enables human interactions is utter non-sense. Despite your saying so, millions of individuals driving around in gas guzzlers does not have the same implications than an equal number riding in horse drawn buggies. I think it fairly obvious, apparently you don't and rather talk about 'human emotions'. What can I say .... [ 11-15-2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: j_b ]

I may be stating the obvious but in a day and age of global economics, international coalitions are ever more relevant, not the opposite. I am not going to get into what Madison/Hamilton/Jefferson said (mean) and did not say, but it always makes me smile to see people 'forget' about the profound changes that have affected human societies since the industrial revolution. It's a little like referring to plato's works as the ultimate relevant document because he knew human nature. finally, fdr has been called many different things (all over the political spectrum) by many different people, so I am not surprised by anything you might say considering you probably also think that anyone more progressive than Gephardt is a dangerous radical. Perhaps you should instead look at politicians of that period as having had to pick up the pieces left by laissez-faire economics. [ 11-15-2002, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: j_b ]

let me check .... hum, it's what I thought we voted for it. Any other skeletons you'd like to rattle? [ 11-14-2002, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: j_b ]

voted in 1948. http://www.udhr.org/history/default.htm

greg, explain to me how my comment does not follow from MtnGoat's following opinion. quote: "Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work." false, this abrogates the personal right to control ownership and contract of ones wholly owned resources. "Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection." false, it expose free indidivuals to the religious dicatates and arbitrary views of others considering what is favorable and "dignity" as well. [...] "Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay." everyone has the right to whatever they can negotiate for, but not an innate right to vacation. "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control." this is the biggest problem of all, it guarantees someone else will be forced to labor to provide an individual with all these things upon demand. "rights" do not need to be supplied by coercion of other free peaceful individuals, but rights to goods and services, innately do. "Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection." still more social coercion "Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit." again we see a "right" to goods and services others must be compelled to provide

well Greg, the first quote was by Eleanor Roosevelt, US representative and chairman of the commission on Human rights. quote: [she] stated that the members of the Commission considered that the draft Declaration represented a great step forward in the protection and promotion of human rights and fundamental freedoms and in their application. As the Commission had pointed out in its report, the Declaration, she explained, was only the first step in the elaboration of the human rights programme called for by the Charter; it was essential that it should be followed by a covenant on human rights, drafted in the form of a treaty and containing provisions for implementation. The draft Declaration, she submitted, was not a treaty or international agreement and did not impose legal obligations; it was rather a statement of basic principles of inalienable human rights setting up a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations. Although it was not legally binding, the Declaration would, nevertheless, have considerable weight. Its adoption, she continued, would commit Member States, in the words of the preamble, " to strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction." The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as a whole, was adopted by 48 votes, with 8 abstentions. The voting was as follows: In favour: Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Burma, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Denmark, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Ethiopia, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Liberia, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Pakistan, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Siam (Thailand), Sweden, Syria, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela. Abstaining: Byelorussian SSR, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Ukrainian SSR, Union of South Africa, USSR, Yugoslavia.

for the accuracy of the record, so far I have linked to pieces at: guardian (actually a book by uri davis, an israeli citizen), independent, nation, reuters, yahoonews, sf chronicles, washington post, gush-shalom (the following individuals:Dr. Yigal Shohat, Colonel (ret.), Israeli Air Force; Dr. Eyal Gross, Faculty of Law, Tel Aviv University; Prof. Adi Ophir, Dept. of Philosophy, Tel-Aviv University; Brig. General (ret.)Dov Tamari; Michael Tarazi, legal adviser to the PLO Negotiations Dept., Ramallah; Shulamit Aloni, former minister of eduation and Meretz Party leader), human rights campaign, amnesty international, Yediot Aharonot (israeli tabloid), and the united nations. And there were probably more which I cannot remember. So why the continued smear tactics? Is there anything else we should not read PP? then, quote: "it sounds like MtnGoat wants us to return to 19th century liberalism (the historical kind not the progressive type)." You are correct sir, the kind that recognizes individuals right to self determination and not as servants of others without their express consent. 8-12 y.o. working children who earn a fraction of what adults make is no doubt an expression of self determination

who said this? "The Universal Declaration is the primary international articulation of the fundamental and inalienable rights of all members of the human family. It represents the first comprehensive agreement among nations as to the specific rights and freedoms of all human beings. The Declaration has become a cornerstone of customary international law, binding all governments to its principles" and who said this: "You're an un-American piece of shit if you buy into this whole UN declaration thing " which opinions among these 2 is most opposite to american ideals?

I was trying to say that the fun factor is an essential part of going out. Being successful and reasonnably safe is also an integral part of fun. If you repeatedly do horrendous approaches without the reward of climbing (not necessarily getting to the top), I think one gets tired of it pretty quickly and probably loses perpective on why he/she is going out in the first place. You can get the training by doing fun stuff (with plenty of suffering to boot), so why add pointless suffering?

I just want to remind everyone interested in understanding where this flurry of attacks comes from that they should read the links provided. These texts are not from anyone's press in particular, they are opinions and witness accounts by people with a good knowledge of the israeli state, often israeli citizens themselves. I am always surprised when someone's wrong doing are justified by someone else's. it is really this kind of logic that allowed the situation to deterorates to what it is today. I really don't feel I have anything to add, rants of dubious logic won't take us very far (for those interested in getting somewhere). oh yeah! check out for yourself the "socialistic" nature of the 1948 declaration of human rights. http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html I suspect the offending sections are the following: Article 21. (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives. (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country. (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures. Article 22. Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality. Article 23. (1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment. (2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work. (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection. (4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests. Article 24. Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay. Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. Article 26. (1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit. (2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace. (3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children. it sounds like MtnGoat wants us to return to 19th century liberalism (the historical kind not the progressive type).

West Cascades winter climbing on weekends is very, very difficult. The chances of reaching the right conditions (snowpack, weather) on a single pre-ordered summit day are nearly impossible except during the on-average 2 weeks of settled weather we may get every winter. I would not touch a higher elevation climb (and most lower) with deep snow in it with a ten foot pole. You've got to stack the odds in your favor over the long term. You're better off planning on skiing every day you can and jumping at the opportunity to climb if conditions are right (or you can get the time off). That'll prepare you for Denali and it'll be fun.

anyhow, it's not like we are here to convince one another. I only hope whoever cared took the time to read some of the links provided in spite of the usual attempts to shoot the messenger. I am confident that an objective reader would agree that the case for apartheid can be made. Not only is it recognizable in the field but law and policy clearly provide the official framework. quote: mtngoat: the UN declaration of Human rights [...] [is] a document I find severely flawed and I am not bound to consider it deterministic or applicable by my standards

quote: They are the only democracy in the region. We share common values much more so than with the Arab world. Israel is a friend of the USA. You stand by your friends. ...A difficult concept for some here, apparentlyoh I see what you mean: Top Stories - Reuters U.S. Loses New Bid to Block U.N. Anti-Torture Pact Thu Nov 7, 6:44 AM ET By Irwin Arieff UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - A U.N. committee dealt the United States a heavy defeat on Thursday in its bid to block or cripple a draft anti-torture treaty that has been a decade in the making, paving the way for the pact's final approval next month. Overriding opposition from Washington, the U.N. General Assembly's Social, Humanitarian and Cultural Committee approved the draft treaty by a vote of 104 to eight, with 37 abstentions. Joining Washington were China, Cuba, Israel, Japan, Nigeria, Syria and Vietnam." I am sure you'll be glad to have friends in such good company. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021107/ts_nm/rights_torture_usa_dc_2

I am not picking out Jenin, PP is. I place Jenin within the context of israeli policy toward arabs and palestininans. If they need more examples than I have given them so far, I'll be glad to oblige. Webster Main Entry: geno·cide Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId Function: noun Date: 1944 : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

quote: Note the absurd use of the terms genocide and crime in the J_B favored sources. What makes the use of such terms repellent and contemptible is that they are based in purposefully spread lies. As such they are not part of a vigorous debate but rather are mere propaganda points to be used by those who either uncritically accept such drivel or believe if you repeat a lie with vigor and volume you can will it into becoming the truth[sarcasm] yeah dude, you're right. 22 confirmed-civilians dead and 100's of injured in one event in one city is nothing, it's not even genocide [/sarcasm] you seem so dim-witted sometimes. http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/

quote: "as far as what you'd do we have a pretty good idea by now " Do we? Why don't you spell it out for "us" so we can see what you *think* you know? I don't need to. Come on, the 1948 declaration of human rights and the geneva convention? This should leave you in pretty good company. quote: but when I make distinctions and defend them I'm the one being unreasonable somehowbecause there is nothing black and white about letting israel pursue its long-standing predatorial policy toward arabs and their land. You use euphemism such as 'defect','imperfection' to describe one type of terror and systematic policy of expulsion (millions of refugees, 10k's of killed individual, 1000's destroyed houses, countless pulled olive trees, no right to own 93% of the land, no acknowledged citizenship, etc...) and in the same sentence graphically demonize arabs as a whole at every turn. You refuse to acknowledge that whether horror is committed with a gun, a jet, a bomb or by refusing pregnant arab women last minute access to a hospital, the results eventually and intent are the same. All these things are not errors or defects, they are the systematic genocidal policy that usually accompany land grabbing.

did you talk to gulf air to see whether someone was taking over kurt's biz? I don't think anyone (established and reputable)on the south side would do this kind of work on a regular basis. But perhaps try to call Fishing and Flying in Cordova or Alaska Backcountry adventures (http://www.alaskabackcountry.com/) near Valdez. Both outfits have fixed-wings on skis for at least part of the year. It'd be no longer of a trip than from Ultima Thule since anyway you have to fly there. Chugach Powder guides in Cordova may have a better, less biased perspective on who might be able to do the job. since Kurt is gone, my personal choice would be Andy Williams because of his experience, cost and anyway southwestern Yukon is paradise

http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/kurdi_eng.html quite long but wow! note: most destruction occurred after fighting stopped quote: off hand one issue that stands out to me is that the second link uses the UN declaration of Human rights as a basis for judgement.....it's a document I find severely flawed and I am not bound to consider it deterministic or applicable by my standardsIsrael signed the human right declaration (as well as the geneva convention), as far as what you'd do we have a pretty good idea by now quote: I have already mainained is *not* perfectyeah, charges of apartheid would dent anybody's 'perfect' democratic armor quote: I find a flawed nation, as all are, which maintains rights even at disparate levelsI suspect pre-1993 south africa was also 'a flawed nation, as all are' quote: expresses "resistance" by choosing to provably target innocents, with full intent and by design as intended primary targetsthis is terror by definition, a method used by both sides. quote: I disagree with Isreal building the settlements! What more do you want from me on this example than agreement that they should not be doing this? 6 billion aid package a year is a sure way to express disagreement quote: Only the Pals continue these atrocitieshttp://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/309/nation/Group_accuses_Israel_of_war_crimes+.shtml http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/recent/MDE151492002?OpenDocument just one example ... quote: These are not attacks on military targets, or accidental shootings in crowded places, these people go directly to peoples houses, seek women and children intentionally, and slaughter them methodically, one by one, point blank, with full intent, because these victims are the fully intended targetsyes, using bulldozers to collapse buildings on top of their inhabitants, or preventing women giving birth from reaching an hospital is not intentional nor methodical etc .... everything is black and white, isn't it goat?

http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/forum_eng.html#shohat quite long but a great read. 7 speeches by retired army officers, academics, former ministers. Well worth it.

quote: I dont think it proves muchI'd expect nothing different from you. quote: I am not sure what point you're makingthat israeli policy toward arabs has a large responsability in this bloody mess. I am not surprised you can't see it even after reading the pieces I linked, those with a more open mind should think differently.

Robert Fisk: How to shut up your critics with a single word 21 October 2002 Thank God, I often say, for the Israeli press. For where else will you find the sort of courageous condemnation of Israel's cruel and brutal treatment of the Palestinians? Where else can we read that Moshe Ya'alon, Ariel Sharon's new chief of staff, described the "Palestinian threat" as "like a cancer – there are all sorts of solutions to cancerous manifestations. For the time being, I am applying chemotherapy." Where else can we read that the Israeli Herut Party chairman, Michael Kleiner, said that "for every victim of ours there must be 1,000 dead Palestinians". Where else can we read that Eitan Ben Eliahu, the former Israeli Air Force commander, said that "eventually we will have to thin out the number of Palestinians living in the territories". Where else can we read that the new head of Mossad, General Meir Dagan – a close personal friend of Mr Sharon – believes in "liquidation units", that other Mossad men regard him as a threat because "if Dagan brings his morality to the Mossad, Israel could become a country in which no normal Jew would want to live". You will have to read all this in Ma'ariv, Ha'aretz or Yediot Ahronot because in much of the Western world, a vicious campaign of slander is being waged against any journalist or activist who dares to criticise Israeli policies or those that shape them. The all-purpose slander of "anti-Semitism" is now used with ever-increasing promiscuity against anyone – people who condemn the wickedness of Palestinian suicide bombings every bit as much as they do the cruelty of Israel's repeated killing of children – in an attempt to shut them up. Daniel Pipes and Martin Kramer of the Middle East Forum now run a website in the United States to denounce academics who are deemed to have shown "hatred of Israel". One of the eight professors already on this contemptible McCarthyite list – it is grotesquely called "Campus Watch" – committed the unpardonable sin of signing a petition in support of the Palestinian scholar Edward Said. Pipes wants students to inform on professors who are guilty of "campus anti-Semitism". The University of North Carolina is being targeted – apparently because freshmen were required to read passages from the Koran – along with Harvard where, like students in many other US universities, undergraduates are demanding that their colleges disinvest in companies that sell weapons to Israel. In some cases, American universities – which happily disinvested in tobacco companies – have now taken the step of blocking all student access to their records of investment. Lawrence Summers, the Jewish president of Harvard, has denounced "profoundly anti-Israel views" in "progressive intellectual communities", that are – I enjoyed this academic sleight of hand – "advocating and taking actions that are anti-semitic in their effect if not their intent". Mr Said himself has already described all this as a campaign "to ask students and faculty to inform against pro-Palestinian colleagues, intimidating the right of free speech and seriously curtailing academic freedom". Ted Honderich, a Canadian-born philosopher who teaches at University College London, tells me that Oxfam has refused to accept £5,000 plus other royalties from his new book After the Terror following a campaign against him in the Toronto-based Globe and Mail. Now I happen to take issue with some of Professor Honderich's conclusions and I think his book – praised by the American-Jewish scholar Noam Chomsky – meanders. I especially don't like his assertion that Palestinians, in trying to free themselves from occupation, have a "moral right to terrorism". Blowing up children in pizzerias – and Professor Honderich's book is not an endorsement of such atrocities – is a crime against humanity. There is no moral right to do this. But what in God's name is Oxfam doing refusing Professor Honderich's money for its humanitarian work? Who was behind this? Our own John Pilger made a programme for Carlton Television called Palestine Is Still The Issue. I have watched it three times. It is accurate in every historical detail; indeed its historical adviser was a left-wing Israeli academic. But Carlton's own chairman, Michael Green – in one of the most gutless statements in recent British journalism – announced that it was "a tragedy for Israel so far as accuracy is concerned". Why Mr Green should want to utter such trash is beyond me. But what does he mean by "tragedy"? Is he comparing Pilger to a suicide bomber? And so it goes on. It is left, of course, to the likes of Uri Avneri in Israel to state that "the Sharon government is a giant laboratory for the growing of the anti-Semitism virus". He rightly says that by smearing those who detest the persecution of the Palestinians as anti-Semites, "the sting is taken out of this word, giving it something approaching respectability". But we can take comfort that 28 brave academics have signed a petition condemning President George Bush's build-up to war and Israel's support for it and warning that the Israeli government may be contemplating crimes against humanity on the Palestinians, including ethnic cleansing. Have Mr Pipes and his chums put the names of these good men and women on their hate list? You bet they haven't. Because all of them are Israeli scholars at Israeli universities. I wonder why we weren't told about this. http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=344510