glen

Here's a question for those out there with bit more legal savvy than I. When I reread the letter, I noticed that the Demo Program was started as a pilot program to last 3 years without floor debate. Ok, fine. Then it was extended as part of the House Appropriations Bill. The question is this: Is there any way to spin that up as 'taxation without representation' - or does that go out the window when it was inlcuded as a part of a bill? It seems like what might be good is to push for some senator to actually get this thing to see the light of day on the floor. Thus far it seems to have been a bit of a mushroom (eg, kept in the dark and fed a lot of shit). It seems like it is difficult to change it or have input when it is never actively engaged in the political process. Unless it sees the light of day, I doubt our letters will be of much use. It seems unlikely that the USDA is going to go to congress and request that the Fee Demo be removed.

Unfortunately, I didn't keep a copy of the letter I sent her via the online letter submission she has on her webpage. I'm not sure the response would have been all that different wiht snail mail, other than using more paper. It basically stated that I recognize that a budget is required in order to maintain facilities and trail maintenance, but that I didn't believe Fee Demo is the way to go. I then gave an itemized list of reasons why I thought this. I followed with a brief comment on the difference between compliance (ie, buying a pass not to get a ticket) and support of the program- after all, they are entirely different things in this case. I have no problem having my $ go to pay for trails and such. I use them and recognize that it takes work to maintain the resource. I do have a problem with the way that the USDA is administering its budget and the way in which it is 'generating revenue' from the Fee Demo instead of balancing it's budget internally. I am not willing to spend 20 years of my life working for the govm't to become a high ranker in USDA to change the way in which policy is implemented, so I called their boss. The boss (Cantwell) seems to have responded in a somewhat mroe polished, but overall quite similar way to the manner in which Larry the Tool's boss responded to mattp- "tell them what they told you, empathize, support... do nothing." I have failed to see many improvements as a result of Fee Demo. They generally choose to increase high impact infrastructure which requires additional staff and expense over the years instead of reducing fees and maintaining impact levels through effective trail management, etc. If this trend is an indicator, it could be the tip of a pleasantly vicious cycle. Write more letters. Democracy only works when people take responsibility for it. It would be fun to start a collection of identical form letters, at the very least. G

A few days ago, I wrote to Cantwell and voiced my opinion on the Fee Demo program. You all know the gripes already, no reason to repeat them here. Included is her response. I'm not sure if it says anything at all really. But, it is nice to know what those represeting WA are actually willling to go down on paper as having said (or not go down on paper saying, as the case may be) on this topic. Dear Mr. Wallace: Thank you for contacting me about fees charged for recreational use of federal lands that are not included in the National Park System. I appreciate your taking the time to share your views with me. I believe that the Recreation Fee Demonstration program, which allows the Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management and other agencies to charge fees for use of public lands, has benefits for both recreational users and local land managers, but I also believe the program needs additional study. The Recreation Fee Demonstration Project (Fee Demo) was originally authorized without floor debate as a 3-year test program. The program was set to expire in late 2002, but was extended until 2004 as part of the Interior appropriations bill. The major benefit of the Fee Demo program is that it permits local sites to retain and use 80 percent of the funds raised for site-specific improvements and maintenance. Since 1996, the program has generated nearly $1 billion. In Washington state, fees have been used to pay for interpretive services at Mount St. Helens to improve disabled access to viewing platforms, restrooms, and picnic facilities at multiple sites, and for maintenance or reconstruction of 1500 miles of trails. I am concerned, however, by studies showing that the fees result in reduced access to public lands, and I am also interested in learning if the program has led to reduced federal appropriations for maintenance. I am also worried that over time the program would cause local land managers to favor creating higher impact recreational usage facilities because of the higher amounts of fee revenue raised. Finally, and most critically, if the program is to continue, coordination of the fee system between lands owned by different agencies must be improved. The General Accounting Office (GAO) released a report on the progress of the Fee Demo program in November 2001. In the report, GAO makes several suggestions towards improving the management of the program. I will continue follow this issue closely in order to determine whether the Fee Demo program demonstrates that the collection of usage fees will serve as a positive measure to improve the recreational opportunities on our public lands. Again, thank you for writing, and please do not hesitate to contact me again on this or any other issue. Sincerely, Maria Cantwell United States Senator

Looks like all the usual suspects are getting pissed off at Lambone. Didn't even have to start a new thread to get them pissed off. Where's cavey? I think that we should start a new forum modeled after Celebrity Death Match. Maybe the Avatar Spray match or something. Trask vs. Scott'tryx... Lambone vs. RURP... Instead of hits, they get ratings and the other person loses their beloved avatar. BUT WAIT.. who's the tag team? And for the lurking audience, a and a for all!

I hear if you get the big cans of Mickeys you can fold the cans into crampons.

1048

Man... all this lubby-dubby stuff is making me want to hurl.

Larry has consumed 100 posts!

Kudos and spray on EriK! It's amazing how many regulations we have, as a society, to secure our 'freedom'. [ 05-03-2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: erik ]

It took me about 10 minutes to write a letter to Maria Cantwell expressing my views on the FD program. It took longer than that just to read the 50 posts in this thread. Which was the better use of my time? Also, Lambone wasn't expressing support of the Fee Demo program in any way, shape or form. He was simply putting 'Larry' into context. Kudos. However, if you are angry about Fee Demo, you should probably put your efforts into doing something about it, not thrashing on L-bone.

Hey thanks! Sounds like some great stuff. I definitely have a good list of to -do's as the trails/peaks clear up. Stefan-That 35 miler sounds great- and like a pretty stout day. I'll have to get in a bit better shape for that one or plan on some somewhere in the middle.

In the last couple of years I have developed a liking for long, fast day hikes. Preferably involving a little bit of class 3. I've heard a day hike through the Enchantments is a good one. Any others out there in the Cascades I should put on my summer to-do list?

Hey, jsut because my girlfriend doesn't ice climb, rock climb and go mountain biking with me doesn't mean that I don't enjoy getting out for a paddle .

anybody out there have saddles for a sea kayak that they want to get rid of so they can go buy that shiny new set of BD camalots?

Gomer #1. If he needed it, he probably wouldn't be so eager to get rid of it. Pull the drill bit out of yer arse and tip one back.

From the horses mouth, the overarching mission statement of the NPS, as laid out in the documents that created it, is: "...to promote and regulate the use of the... national parks... which purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations." For more on this, see: http://www.nps.gov/legacy/mission.html There is nothing in the mission statement that requires that climbers like snowmobiles. The issue on that regard is whether or not snowmobiles damage the environment such that the resource is not left 'unimpaired for future generations.' This is researchable mostly through water quality monitoring of snowmelt, or quantification of impacts on vegetation. This is a bit of dangerous issue to bring up with the NPS considering the way in which bolting is viewed in other parks (not much of an issue at St Helens tho). As far as firearms go, the rule of thumb in the lower 48 is that they are allowed in the park, but they have to be unloaded and disassembled as reasonable. This is largely to deal with poaching issues, as it was explained to me (This has been an issue in Yosemite in recent years). Having worked for the NPS for several years, I can say that writing to your congressman about this is actually effective. I can also say that the persons in the first few tiers of the system are people who are pretty similar to those on this page and are committed to doing the right thing (of course there are exceptions, but remember the bulk, not the few). As you get higher in the bureaucracy, the people you encounter become increasingly political. Since they are the ones who are in a position to affect policy directly, they are the ones to pester. Find out the phone number of the park superintendent and pester them.The number for St Helens visitor center is (360) 274-2100. Ask them for the phone # of the superintendent. For congress, take your pick from: http://www.congress.org/congressorg/dbq/officials/directory/statedel.dbq?state=WA I doubt that you can directly get snowmobiles off. You can probably get them to equalize the permit fee (most likely resulting in a new fee for snowmobilers) with enough hassle. My 0.0000002

Here's an easy way to do something. Someone print the linked petition and offer it to be signed and mailed at the next pub club (preferably without beer stains). Just a thought. http://www.freeourparks.org/action/petition.cfm maybe post a copy of arguments against the Fucked Demo Program at your favorite trailhead to edumicate the hordes of yuppies. If anything it would be fun to see how many would actually read it.

As a counter to the Marmot bashing, I've had nothing but positive experiences there. The staff were knowledgeable, nice and willing to take the time to make sure I was set up right. I was in there for about 3 hours ( or maybe it just seemed like it...) when I was looking for anew pair of mountaineering boots. The guy seemed to actually like making sure that the boots were the best fit and the like. I was impressed and will go back there. Sure as hell better than REI and less elitist attitude than Feathered Friends, by my experience.

"...I bet it's great to be buzzed up at 10,000 feet...." Gee, where did this one come from?

See: http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PROFRAME&PROD_ID=31370

Ever notice how much page space Mounties guidebooks spend trashing on everyone who doesn't exactly conform to their textbook ideals? ie, mountainbikers, ski areas, etc... Granted some of the soapboxing may be warranted, but keep it outta the guidebooks. The darker side of the Mountaineers touchy-feely syndrome...

Anybody up for a run up the Tooth on sunday, provided it's not pouring rain? email me at gsw@u.washington.edu if so.

Ordeal and Wet Kiss are on the East side of the park. In general, the climbs and rock quality are both better on the east side. Hence, the crowds tend to be a bit thicker there. If you do make the trek to the East side of the park (note, you have to go around, the road doesn't go through the park), you should hit up Relayer and Castles made of sand on the Upper Crust Wall. The Monolith tends to be a circus and is worth avoiding for that reason, athough if uncrowded, is worth it. Coyote Ugly is a fun and long 5.9 lead (but don't lead the 10c variation if you value your skin intact). Ali Baba is pretty fun too.