Jim

The Battle for God - by Karen Armstrong is a good read on this subject.

Well looking at facts on the ground, and such professional assessments as the NIA, it's indisputable that the invasion of Iraq will go down as the number one world policy strategic blunder in the past 25 years. But you never know. We still have a couple of years for the Bushies to upstage themselves.

You could start by s-l-o-w-l-y reading the question. I asked for you to list his accomplishments. You told me a person trait. Still waiting. Supreme court right-to-lifers. Ok that's one. That's it?

sorry dude.. busy at work only skimmed thru the stuff right now. but one thing i've liked that is a more broad answer and i think we've covered before is that he's shown leadership. he had a swift and sturn response to 9-11. putting aside whether it was the right decisions, truly it is too early to tell and i'm not claiming i like or dislike them. but he did reasonable things as a response with the approval and support of both parties. he didn't waffle around. In other words you can't answer the question. You need to research it? You could have typed up a list in the time it took you to type out that avoid-the-issue paragraph. Stunning silence.

From Bush's first post 911 speech to Congress: I know many citizens have fears tonight, and I ask you to be calm and resolute, even in the face of a continuing threat. I ask you to uphold the values of America and remember why so many have come here. We're in a fight for our principles, and our first responsibility is to live by them. Yep!

Thanks, yes you did respond in reasoned manner. I was waiting for underworld in particular.

Oh Jesus. You can't think of anything on your own? You have to search the web for a list of accomplishments that include this(?!) President Bush speaks at christening ceremony for the USS Ronald Reagan President Bush speaks at Chicago Mercantile Exchange President Bush and meets with President Kim Dae-Jung of South Korea President Bush meets with National Energy Policy Development Group President and Mrs. Bush Speak to women business leaders President Bush welcomes Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel President Bush speaks at La Sociedad Cubana President Bush welcomes Catholic Leaders to White House President Bush proclaims Education and Sharing Day, USA President Bush speaks to Greek Community Leaders President Bush speaks to high tech leaders President Bush speaks to African American leaders President Bush proclaims National Child Abuse Prevention Month. President Bush speaks to members of the Baseball Hall of Fame President Bush signs resolution repealing ergonomics regulation that repeals burdensome and broad regulation dealing with ergonomics Seriously - just tell me in plain words and not some cyperlink. The ten best things that Bush has accomplished while having both houses of Congress. Again, if you can't come up with anything but a non-event (no terrorists attacks, no depression, etc) it's lame-o. Waiting again.

Still waiting for that list.

So the answer is he's facing difficult problems and he's not really doing so bad? Here's my take. Bush squandered a world of political will after 911 by going on his Iraq adventure and lying about the reasons why. While catering to coporate interests and the wealthy at home (medicare bill and tax cuts) we have dug a big money pit that will last for a generation. If these wars are so important, why not pull in our fiscal belt a bit and ask all to sacrifice some? We defeated Hitler faster. By splitting our armed forces where they are needed (Afganistan) and where they were not (Iraq) we are losing both fronts badly. The Taliban have come back strong and now control 80% of Afganistan and are with 100 mi of Kabul. And in the backgrond Korea is thumbing it's nose at us, China is making inroads across all technology sectors and is strategicly working the middle east. Oh yea, Iran will control Iraq thur the Shia once we pull out. The level of corruption of the republican congress has reached new levels with DeLay and his instutinal K Street project and the money scams with Abronoff, Reid, and Grover Norquist. The executive power grab and the trimming of constitutional rights highlights the huburis of this administration. The most disturbing recent trend is Bush's rhetoric lying about democrats, flatly stating that they want to wait until another attack before doing anything about terrorists. This administration consitently attacks any critic (inside or outside the party) as a terrorist sympathizer. It's base, extremely devisive, and does nothing for unifying the country towards common goals in difficult times. And lastly, Bush is dumb as a stump. He doesn't read, his speech writers have to keep things at or below three syllables, he has no grasp of world history or diplomacy, and brushes off advice, except from pappa Cheney. He recently said that he would not waiver from Iraq even if Laura and his dog were the only ones who agreed with him. Such bullheadedness might be admirable for an offensive lineman but tragic for a head of state. So - just the facts now and not some mealy-mouthed comment on perspective. Give me a list of what you are proud of that the Bush administration has accoplished. And don't start by listing things that didn't happen - like another attack. Give me a straight-forward list of accomplishments. I'm waiting.

I think you know I wasn't looking for an agurment, mostly listening. The odd protocal of the intenet is one thing, speaking to someone in person, particulary who you don't know is another. I think the arrests happend way earlier. The cops looked bored around the federal building. And the crowd was all on the plaza and not blocking traffic. You did have to weave your way through them on the sidewalk however. I have to admit I'm a bit confused. I guess I still have the quaint notion that the republican party represents conservative values. With the mismanagement of world affairs, our fiscal state, clipping away at the Constitution, and the race to the gutter from the divisive rhetoric from the White House these days, what is in it for the Americans that support the Bush administration? Seriously. Without getting bombastic and going on about limp-wristed democrats, can anyone clue me in? When your contry has been attacked the best strategy is to unite your friends and divide your enemies. Bush has done the opposite in spades.

A short postscript. There were the usual few gray-haired birkenstock folks with lots of buttons on their vests but generally a few hundred of normal folks. I wandered around and spoke to quite a few; my favorites were the chick dressed like a beauty queen and a shash that said "I Miss America" and the older woman with a sign that said "Lying Sack of Shit". The ragin' grannies are a pretty spry group. I found it more interesting to talk to some folks on the edge of the crowd, some who were passing thru or waiting for a bus. A couple of people act like you're a pan handler or something if you strike up a conversation (odd). I spoke to a couple of folks who thought the demonstration was "silly" and were staunch repuublicans and seem annoyed. But after a few minutes of conversation it became apparent that they too had concerns over the power grab by this administration. Both of them came to the same conclusion though, they would hold their nose and vote republican, for any office. At the end I asked them if it was worth it, the Iraq adventure, half-done in Afganistan, and ignoring basic conservative values (balance of power, fiscal mgmt, etc.). They both thought a minute, shrugged, and nodded yes.

Chiao - off to check it out. Say hi to Paula for me.

If bitching was all I was doing, then you have a point. However, if you want to volunteer in a good social or environmental group, or have time to tutor some kids that need help, send me a PM. We could use some help. Continue to spray. Oh, and you forgot the

Check this out. link Hmmm. You found this link in 3 minutes. Hmmm.

Live Consume Be Silent Die

Your apathetic, whatever. I'll give you the report tomorrow. And then you'll say I'm making it up. You can sit on your hands and do nothing. Or your could do something, (anything for Christ's sake)to make the world a better place. It's up to you.

Thanks for asking! Pretty good from what I'm hearing. But I will not be joining until it gets downtown. Rode in early to be able to leave a bit early and attend. See ya there.

Yea "da war on terror" another slogan. A never ending "war". About as sucessful as the war on drugs. What a bunch of morons running the show. Their fate: Mark their names and mark them well. For them, no minstrel raptures swell. High though their titles, proud their name, boundless their wealth as wish can claim, these wretched figures shall go down to the vile dust from whence they sprung, unwept, unhonored and unsung. --Sir Walter Scott

To state it more clearly then: restricting the rights of the accused is a "good" thing? The Bush Admin actions have had results by which we can judge the effectiveness of these policies. How about the Canadian citizen who was pulled out of line at JFK interogated, and then detained, without charges, in NYC for a month. Then shipped to Jordan, where he had left from years ago, and was beaten into signing a confession. After serving almost a year in a 6x6x8 cell, and after significant diplomatic pressure from Canada, he was released. He was guilty of nothing other than orginally being from the middle east. Held without charges, no chance to review the evidence against him, no way to challenge his detention, and then shipped off, in our rendition sort of way, to be tortured. The evidence is already in on how we treat innocents, including some who were swept up and into Gitmo. So this is what we want our democracy to represent? Not me.

Not to be picky but this link does not include the final legislation, just the seperate House and Senate versions

Full legislation: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:3:./temp/~c109cTUjRL::

Well, not to reguritate what has been in the papers and on the radio for the past month or so and is easily obtainable; here are the primary issues (IMO): Enemy Combatants: A vaguely broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted. The Geneva Conventions: The bill would repudiate a half-century of international precedent by allowing Bushie to decide on his own what abusive interrogation methods he considered permissible (rather than use the guidelines in the Conventions). And his decision could stay secret — there’s no requirement that this list be published. Habeas Corpus: Detainees in U.S. military prisons would lose the basic right to challenge their imprisonment. Therefore, no due process. These cases do not clog the courts, nor coddle terrorists. They simply give wrongly imprisoned people a chance to prove their innocence. In addition, if charged and the evidence against you is labled as "classified" then you will not be allowed to see it. How convenient. Judicial Review: The courts would have no power to review any aspect of this new system, except verdicts by military tribunals. The bill would limit appeals and bar legal actions based on the Geneva Conventions, directly or indirectly. All Mr. Bush would have to do to lock anyone up forever is to declare him an illegal combatant and not have a trial.

I suspect there will be more than 100 folks downtown tomorrow for this.

FYI Last week, both the House and Senate voted to legalize torture, indefinite detention, and military tribunals which deny basic legal rights. On Friday, Bush signed the bill. No longer will torture be carried out by secret orders in secret prisons, but openly and with Congressional approval. It really is *that* bad, and the world cannot wait. Tomorrow, on October 5th, tens of thousands of people from over 190 cities and towns across the country (and counting) will be pouring out of their homes, jobs and schools to make a statement that cannot be be ignored: *This regime does not represent us and we will not stop until we drive it out! * In Washington State alone, there will also be protests in Everett, Olympia, Spokane, Twisp and Wenatchee. Tacoma participants are carpooling to their choice of Olympia or Seattle. *Look in today's New York Times for World Can't Wait's full-page ad with the headline, **SILENCE + TORTURE = COMPLICITY*<http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3018&Itemid=223> "The point is this: history is full of examples where people who had right on their side fought against tremendous odds and were victorious. And it is also full of examples of people passively hoping to wait it out, only to get swallowed up by a horror beyond what they ever imagined. The future is unwritten. WHICH ONE WE GET IS UP TO US." (from The Call to Drive Out the Bush Regime<http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2538&Itemid=2> ) 10:00 am--College and High School students from all schools in and around Seattle gather at Red Square on the University of Washington Campus followed by march to Capitol Hill. 12:00 Noon--Gather at Cal Anderson Park, (11th Ave between E Denny and E Pine in Capitol Hill) followed by 1:00 pm--Rally with speakers & music 3:00 pm--March into downtown Seattle to the Federal Building (2nd & Marion) 4:00 pm--Rally and SIT-IN AT THE FEDERAL BUILDING--As the night unfolds, people will talk, debate, create music and art, and work together on visions and plans for driving out the Bush Regime and reversing the whole direction it has been taking the country and the world.

Oh this is getting good, from CNN: A senior congressional aide said Wednesday that he alerted House Speaker Dennis Hastert's office two years ago about worrisome conduct by former Rep. Mark Foley with teenage pages. Kirk Fordham told The Associated Press that when he was told about Foley's inappropriate behavior toward pages, he had "more than one conversation with senior staff at the highest level of the House of Representatives asking them to intervene