Don_Serl

you found climbable ice? edit: oops, just found your "Hope Mtn - Poker in the Rear" TR. very nice photos - inspiring! too bad it snows in later on... cheers

colin, glad u chimed in. the discussion goes on and on, of course. and, really, there are two subjects in play here: 1. the advantages / disadvantages of leashless tools, and 2. methods of attachment (if any) for leashless tools to prevent 'dropsie'. my (negative) position on question 1 is clear to anybody who's come across any of my comments on the subject on this forum, but when somebody with as burly a record as Colin offers the opposite opinion, it gives me pause to think. perhaps there are two factors behind the disagreement: a. by definition, you have to be able to hang on to use leashless tools, and I'm no sport climber. upper body strength is always my limiting factor. Colin, I suspect you are just plain way stronger than I am, and pulling on the tools is more within your capacity than it is for me. I got some feedback from a pretty strong, very talented ice climbing friend in Canmore before responding, and on this subject he said "one thing is clear, if you want to climb leashless there is no technique in the world that will help one if one messes up - only brute power". he reckons leashless tools are best suited to those who can climb mid 12s and better. that ain't me... b. leashless climbing allows one to be more 'artful' (matches, crossing hands, etc), but I'm not climbing the sorts of things where this is important at all, whereas you, Colin, might be. rock headwalls on the Emperor face could well be a place where full-on modern leashless dry-tooling technique could offer advantages. and your hands may stay warmer without the constriction of leashes. on the other hand, I can't see any need for the supposed 'freedom' on typical alpine ice faces or in couloirs. they just are not complicated, from the tool-use p-o-v. so, question 2: say you DO decide to use leashless tools on alpine routes ; and say you're concerned about dropping a tool (the concern is equally valid on a waterfall, but the outcome is usually much more controlled and less serious). how do you cope? a. hang on tight, and pay great attention to your tools. maybe occasionally easier said than done... b. put leashes on the 'leashless' tools. kinda ironic, but fact is, a fair number of people do this on 'serious' climbs. some set 'em loose, to keep the swing free; some snug 'em up. this is far more common in the alpine than on waterfalls, where the 'sporting' approach to leashless is much more common. c. add tethers. a fair number of climbers (including some real 'notables') are doing this in the alpine too, at least some of the time. the technique works - but i stand by my objections. too many snarls; misbalancing swing; unable to plunge shaft (not that you can effectively do this with a modern 'kinked-shafted' leashless tool); long awkward retrieval if you let it dangle; unable to holster tool or tuck it down your back. against the positives: dead simple; completely secure; preset to back up the belay; offers some 'anchor' security when placing gear in a tenuous position. it's obviously possible for rational, experienced people to disagree about the 'best' choice. for the record, in the alpine I use simple 'buckle-slider' type leashes, attached to the head of the tool. and I usually have a set length clipper sling larks-footed onto the waist of my harness, so i can clip into the bottom of a tool at a belay, or when i feel the need for more security while buggering about with gear, or whatever. i really like the 'old-fashioned' head attachment leash system: it's easy in and easy out (altho the buckle can ice up). it's secure, light, cheap, and uncomplicated. you can dangle the tool when you need to (placing gear and/or rock moves). moving to 'piolet-whatever' with your hand on the upper shaft or on the head is simple. plunging the shaft is simple. facing the tool the opposite way to chop (or tunnel) with the adze is simple. it's a lot like using an ice axe, in fact, only a bit more technical. it must be nearly winter - this debate pops up every year, and while some may get bored by it all, i think it's one of the most attractive aspects of the climbing community that we argue out the relative merits of our gear and systems so vociferously. makes the sport better, maybe helps less experienced folk make better decisions (and without wasting money), and maybe occasionally saves a life. have another beer! tell me another lie! cheers,

not sure how much snow there'll be, and how that'll affect access, but Monashee Prov Park lies east, then north from Vernon. superb backcountry (in summer, at least). and Mt Fosthall is an easy but lovely peak. park: http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/bcparks/explore/parkpgs/monashee.html search google for images under "Mount Fosthall": http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://bivouac.com/img/Mtn/2239_Fosthall.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bivouac.com/MtnPg.asp%3FMtnId%3D2239&h=239&w=350&sz=29&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=Jkg7VfTvjGxknM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmount%2Bfosthall%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX the snow line on the N face would be a fine moderate winter climb in firm conditions. the rib to the right looks a good bet too. cheers,

...gives me plenty of GUILT in MY book, but a) we had about 4 weekends worth of ice experience when we set off to climb the routes at Marble Canyon (thirty years ago - jeez, time flies...), b) we had shit gear, and c) we'd heard this was how you dealt with steep stuff in the Rockies. luckily, we 'prevailed'. that's definitely a good goal. how about this for a try: tie 'em to your wrists, not your harness - that way they don't fuck up your swing dynamics, and you don't have 'danglies' catching every available rugosity. what i'm saying is to attach a pair of clip-off style leashes to your tools, set WAY slack. stay 'in' 'em when you're worried about dropping 'em, unclip 'em when you want to be 'artful', or when you're gonna climb some mixed, or at belays, or when you're plunging the shafts, or ????. i've got a friend /prior partner (now living in canmore) who does this some, and he's been happy enuf. just a thought... cheers

choada, oops, had a cpl glasses of wine after dinner, so my inhibition level is down. which leads me to comment: is anybody AWAKE out there? we went down this path about 30 years ago, and it's NOT the path to take. ANYTHING that you attach to the bottom of your tool will affect the balance and swing of the tool, and not for the better. i spent the first half-decade of my ice-climbing career frightening myself with shit tools on routes that were (looking back) beyond my skill and strength and equipment, and I came to rely on umbilicals to save my ass. or, at least to keep me from dropping off. but when i finally got on top of my fear and took the fucking strings off my tools, the climbing was suddenly about a half-grade easier. and - big personal surprise - i didn't actually need to be any stronger than i already was (i.e., pretty fucking weak) to get up at least 5+ ice. i just needed to understand how to move, and to rely on good, early placements, which come SO much more readily when you have 'freedom of swing'. go back, it's a TRAP... jesus! i know we old timers are boring and stupid and out-of-tune and irrelevant and past our best before dates, but... your loss if you can't learn from the past... and, sorry to diss you trogdor (i don't even know you! and this is not really anything personal, it's about the whole umbilical 'thing'), but if you REALLY can't notice the difference between the swing of your tool with and without something attached to the bottom of the shaft, well, you just gotta try a little harder. it's there, big time, man. try 'em both ways again. and again, preferably on hard, steep terrain. deal with your worries by dealing with your head and your technique, not by hobbling yourself. i can still remember the trepidation with which i was filled when i set off up my first steep route after I'd pitched my umbilicals, and i can also still recall the comparative ease of my swings and the (to me, awesome) accuracy of my sticks. the secret of mastery is... self-mastery. sure came home with a smile on my face that weekend. cheers,

the issue these days is more who's gonna ski the couloirs on either side of it, eh? or, would be if it was up Whistler / Duffey Lk way instead of 'lost' in the Cascades. cheers,

good eye, lad. get in there and climb that thing. i suspect the absence of repeats on Stewart is mainly attributable to the reputation that the whole Cheam range has for poor rock. that reputation is well deserved for the most part, but there are areas of decent rock too. you never know till u rub your nose in it - the whole group is really spectacular, and i suspect gets far less traffic than it did a cpl decades ago when 'mountaineers' just went out and climbed stuff, rather than focussing on more technical routes, which necessitates better rock. the access up there is pretty good lately, too, eh? cheers,

...and THOSE are tire irons for a Euclid. cheers again,

can't fool me! that's not an ice screw, that's a narwhal dick! cheers

sure does. i can't convince myself why it's considered progress to artificially make hard climbing harder. case in point - i watched a couple climbers i greatly respect for their abilities struggle like hell on a gnarly problem at Marble Canyon last January - both were using leashless tools, and getting crazy pumped. when they finished up, i had a go, and cruised the climb - mostly cuz i could focus my energy where it was needed, i.e. making the sticks, placing the feet, and making the moves, not desperately hanging onto the tools and continually running the mental calculator on how much "time" you had left before you dropped off like an over-ripe plum. these guys both are better ice climbers than I am, and stronger too. they just were wasting a huge proportion of their 'ability'. I'm old enough and comfortable enuf in my skin to not give a rat's ass what 'fashion' dictates, especially when that fashion is being propounded by bored, hyper-ambitious (and, admittedly, superbly strong and talented) Frenchmen dependant for their living upon having you buy the fruits of their influence. leashless tools are undoubtedly the ONLY rational choice for modern dry-tooling/ mixed routes - but that's not what I climb. meanwhile, every leashless tool I've swung so far (and I HAVE tried lots of 'em out) swings like a Neanderthal gardening implement on pure ice routes compared to a wide range of modern-day waterfall axes. heck, they swing and place considerably more poorly than the heavy, straight-shafted tools I used to use 20 years ago. and that's BEFORE you tie strings to the back end of them to interfere with what balance you can get into the swing! swing them that is, if the strings don't get tangled in something and cause you to waste yet more energy trying to sort out the cluster-fuck... one of the two or three homilies than I run my life on comes in its most succinct form from N.A.M. Rodger: "The only useful measure of quality is fitness for purpose". a pair of Quarks with a pair of Androids on them, thank you - THAT's "quality", not some stupid system of strings and elastics to keep you from dropping your effing tools when you're so pumped you can't even close your hands around the grips any more. aw, shit, don't get me started... cheers,

the "Duffey North" portion of the proposal does not impinge on the Marriott Basin backcountry skiing area, which lies across the divide immediate to the SW of the proposal area (north of their "Duffey #2" staging area). nor does the proposal impinge into Lost Valley Ck , which is sometimes used by backcountry skier (marked on the map); Downton Ck, almost never used for backcountry skiing, per jordop (also marked on the map); or Melvin Ck, rarely used for backcountry skiing, but the site of Al and Nancy Raine's controversial ski developemnt proposal (south of Downton Ck, NW of Cayoosh, E of "Duffey North"). to me, speaking as a vaguely informed non-skiing outdoorsman, isn't the real 'threat' in the "Duffey South" area? this is the Steep Ck drainage, which recently has become really popular for backcountry day-trips, and which i understand the snowmobile-assisted approach crowd use a LOT. not my issue, but do write if you care at all - "silence gives consent"... cheers,

so spaget, bcalpinism.ca seems to have disappeared (what happened?), but does dru have your line (the dbl cracks, then the shaded RF corner) correct in his photo description? cheers,

umbilicals were a bad idea 30 years ago in the early days of ice climbing (forever hooking on icicles and screwing up your moves, hampering the balance and freedom of your swing), and i find it more than a little humorous that they've somewhat come back into favor for use with 'modern', leashless tools. how does it go? those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it... cheers,

cheam, trail ran up thru forest immediately left of avvy swath/runout that u are hiking up right side of. not sure of current condition. maybe check with Jack Bryceland (he's in Chwk), or go have a look in the rain this weekend and let us all know... good luck, cheers,

so you had to walk the extra 4km or so from the gate? and, yes, it does look snowier than when we were up it the week previously. i love the photo of the crampon soles in the steep narrow section btw - too bad there wasn't 500m of THAT! cheers, don

Hey Bob, getting keened up about the upcoming season, i see. 1. yes, Hit and Run and Air Care both climb the ice in the corner at the left end of the upper tier at Marble Canyon. given the completely different nature of the finishes, however, (one with rock gear and tricky drytooling, the other going right on pure ice) it seemed logical to me to treat them as separate climbs. how else to ID what you've climbed? "we did Air Care with the lefthand rock finish" is too awkward to bear... 2. again, yup. Fender Bender is the route that climbs the curtain between Air Care (in the corner to the left) and Icy BC (the main column in the centre). it doesn't form all the time, as you can see in the photo on page 143: Icy BC is a fat column, Fender Bender is a fringe of icicles, and Air Care/Hit and Run is hidden behind the tree at the left. cheers, don

Here's a couple photos: RT getting an introduction to some lovely alpine gully ice at mid height in Zero Gully. Fishstick into a snowpatch in Zero Gully, with DS on ice below. cheers,

re-reading the above, I realize I meant MINUS 5 and MINUS 4, not "point". apologies if this created confusion... thinking too much about Scotland, i guess. (there is a "Minus Point 5" in jordop's definitive nomenclature, way over just left of "Zero".) cheers,

Sunshine Valley, 12km east of Hope on Hwy 3. close to home for you, cc - check it out - it's a spectacular valley head. cheers,

all 7 would have been welcome - there was quite a bit of pretty deep flogging where the spindrift had packed in. then again, there were some cool sections of 50 degree HARD neve too... way different than 'last time'! ain't snow and ice wonderful that way. cheers,

Trip: Sumallo Headwall - Zero Gully Date: 10/27/2007 Trip Report: I was gonna head back down to the seracs on Baker with a few buddies, but one of the guys I contacted mentioned doing something in the alpine cuz the weather was gonna be suitable. This got me thinking, and Zero Gully seemed to fit the bill - fairly close to town, short approach, and a nice climb for the autumn. In the end Fishstick, GR, RT, and I left town at 5 and arrived at the end of the road at 8 after a lard-puck stop at McDonald in Hope. Btw, there's a gate on the upper valley road 1/2km beyond the forks, but while it's chained, it's not actually locked. We got Graham's RAV4 to the flats below Silvertip - beyond that, it's now ATV terrain. We got away from the car just before 8:30, hit the end of the road in an hour, and crossed the meadows and scree-fields to the snow in another half-hour. Here we cramponned and harnessed up, and by about 10:30 were crunching up hard neve with 5cm-10cm of surface snow of varying consistencies. Once into the gully proper, we encountered wildly varying conditions, from sections of very hard old neve to deep, punky, energy-consuming spindrift-slabs to a few places where the points actually scrabbled on dirt and/or rock. A couple hundred meters up, RT (who's a newbie) reached his comfort limit for soloing, so I roped him up and led and belayed a couple pitches. However, belays were pretty much non-existent with the gear we brought ( a few screws - useless! and a half dozen tri-cams - managed to place one... ), and we were gonna have to downclimb the route (very time consuming), so at 12:30 at about half-height I decided to shepherd RT back down while Fishstick and GR continued to the top. By 3pm we were back at the road-head, and at 4 the others caught up to us, having taken another hour to reach the col thru some "very funky snow" and "badly rotten ice". Sporty! By 5 we were back at the car, and it started to shower at 7:30 just as we got back into Vancouver - I love it when it happen that way! Summary: the cirque is awesome, the approach is cake, and the route conditions are 'entertaining'. take a handful of thin pitons and leave any and all other gear at home. it'll stay good till we get heavy snow... there's a Michael Layton photo in the gallery that shows roughly current conditions: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/showphoto.php?photo=27&size=big&cat=&si=zero i'll try to get a cpl more up once i get some digitals from GR. cheers,

cheam, per any of the relevant guidebooks (Culbert '74; Fairley '86; red Fred), the N face was climbed by Fred and Jim Douglas in 1968. i have never heard of a 2nd ascent of the face, much less a winter ascent - anybody know different? there was a winter ascent of the peak made in March 1958 by Hank Mather and Elfrida Pigou, but that was via the E buttress, during a traverse of the full Pleiades/Larrabee group - now, THERE's an outing that was ahead of its time! as for getting there, once the valleys snow in, you're faced with very long approaches up Slesse Ck, Tamihi Ck, or via Twin Lks/High Pass. and considering the commitment involved, you'd definitely want to have done the route in the summer so u were aware of where it went (which is not very clear from the guidebook descriptions) and what kinda of climbing and gear were involved. I suspect lotsa face climbing, and lotsa thin pitons, but that's a wild-ass guess... good luck, cheers,

and more... MEDIA RELEASE For Immediate Release Vancouver, October 16, 2007 Krzysztof Wielicki (Poland): K2 Winter Odyssey When: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 at 7:30 pm Where: Centennial Theatre, North Vancouver, 2300 Lonsdale Avenue Tickets: $15 in advance, $17 at the door, available at Centennial Theatre, 604 984-4484, and at Mountain Equipment Co-op (Vancouver and North Vancouver stores) Presented by Vancouver Int’l Mountain Film Festival as part of Fall Speaker Series Vancouver – Krzysztof Wielicki (Poland), one of the top world’s high altitude climbers, will be bringing his images, films and stories to share with the Vancouver public. Wielicki is the first man to climb Mount Everest in the winter time. He also climbed 2 other high Himalayan peaks in the bold winter first ascents - Kangchenjunga and Lhotse. He is the 5th man to stand on all 8000m peaks in the world, and he also climbed the 7 highest peaks of all continents. He keeps on pushing his luck on K2, the “Savage Mountain”, still unclimbed in the winter time. Wielicki will be coming to Canada to participate at the Banff Film Festival, and before heading to Banff he will present his multimedia program to the Vancouver audiences at the Centennial Theatre on Tuesday, October 30 at 7:30 pm. He will be assisted by his fellow country man Jacques Olek who took part as some of the earlier reconnaissance expeditions. This is a unique opportunity to take a glimpse into the life of a very special person obsessed by the hardest climbs in the world and one of the most successful Himalayan climber of all times. More information is attached in separate files. For interviews, more information and images please contact: Alan Formanek VIMFF Festival Director alan@vimff.org 604 990-1505

holy moses, is that flick showing a hawser-laid rope? leashless tools, stylin' 'poons, and ropes from the 50s? what a giggle... cheers,

forwarded from Alan Formanek: I am sending you some information on the multi-media show we will be doing with Krzysztof Wielicki and Jacques Olek, "K2 Winter Odyssey", on Tuesday, October 30 at 7:30 at the Centennial Theatre (23rd and Lonsdale, North Vancouver). Please forward this info to the people on your list who may be interested. You probably know that Wielicki has been one of the most prominent high altitude climbers and has many great climbs to his credit, above all the first winter ascents of Everest, Lhotse, and Kanchenjunga, as well as a few first ascents and fast 1-day climbs. sounds great - a TRUE hard-man... cheers,