Peter_Puget

Like the title of the thread says: I was just being a Wise-ass!

Here's one more applicable to our favorite subject: When in doubt consult tradition If still in doubt consult your friends If still in doubt consult your conscience

I can second hollyclimber's Seattle Ortho & Fracture Clinic. When I finally decided to seek help for my own shoulder injury I asked for many recomendations and consistantly the SOFC came up as highly rated and specifically Dr. Peterson. I ended up seeing Dr. Wilson there and am mor ethna happy with the results of my surgery. Seems like 3 months isn't a very long time however.

Your are misinterpreting basic inability to articulate with a willfull obscurantism. But better an honest effort at communication than mere sloganeering.

Given the controversy generated by many climbers it appears that it is indeed not an inherent part of the climbing experience, or if it is, it is of such a general meaning that it is meaningless. Any group intending to have along life (eg climbing) cannot disregard the general trends of society or of competing groups. Clearly many climbers do not find bolting distasteful at all - witness the many posts at this site - also just as clear many find bolting distasteful. The controversy generated by bolting is ALONE sufficient to cause a remedy to be sought without any appeal to spurious traditions or projections of ones personal climbing experience.

Dwayner - Let us say that at least for aurgument's sake I agree with you regarding clean climbing not being an irelevant tradition how does that affect what I have said? Logically it doesn't! And by the way in the early 70's one of the places I learned to lead was at Lover's Leap in CA. Virtually no bolts had been placed there at the time and the area was promoted as a place that should be boltless. Several years ago I returned to the area after an almost 20 year absense and was dismayed by the number of bolts and "sport" routes that covered the cliff. At least with regard to this cliff I share your dismay at what modern tactics have wrought. The clean climbing campaign was short in duration and was forgotten as soon as sport climbing appeared. As a tradition its existense is at best tenuous. (Otherwise why was it alsways so heavily promoted?) Why do we need it to be part of a climbing "tradition"? Shouldn't care for the enviroment exist outside of our climbing experience?

A standard of conduct only has relevancy in a particular social context. For example the shunning of lepers was reasonable conduct before the operation of the Mycobacterium Leprae was know. Similarly rules regulating the operation of motor vehicle so as to minimize the “spooking” of draught animals also made sense at one time. My sense is that many of the traditions in climbing are as outdated as these two examples. While they may help to connect us with a romantic ideal their continued irrelevancy only contributes to ongoing conflict and controversy. Matt has brought up several good examples where the “FA rules” guide leads us to an obvious conflict with common sense. Even in Toulumne meadows, one of the last bastions of the traditional viewpoint, Bachar’s free solos of new routes were after a time ignored and the “accepted” FA using bolts for protection occurred after the real FA Simply put the traditions of the past do not automatically serve us well in the present. By limiting the retro bolt issue to specific routes and the arcane trivia associated with them it is easy to loose sight of the bigger picture and limits development of a new consensus. As far as rap routes on Snow Creek Wall, I climbed Iconoclast/Edge combination a couple of weeks ago and counted almost twenty rap stations to the left of the Iconoclast corner. The sum total of these anchors is without a doubt many times more of an eyesore than dozens of camouflaged chain anchors. Considering that many of these rap anchors are old pins, crappy flakes, or small trees they are also death traps waiting to be sprung. This said I must agree with retro that OS doesn’t really need a fixed rap installation but I wouldn’t be outraged if it was put in place.

The route near the old aid line requires some trad place pro as well. Dolomite tower is nowhere near 3,000' Approach makes the route somewhat less than desirable at least for me after checking out the approach earlier this year.

Yossarian, I think we all should want as many active climbers using this site as possible. The greater the number of active climbers posting and reviewing this site the better it will become. AND I bet the improvement in terms of information and even entertaining banter will prove to be geometric not arithmetic. To the extent discussions go over the edge and make people resistant to participating we all suffer. My guess is that several today’s postings will drive people away.

How easy is it to repair an Alien?

I have several old ALiens (very old) and have HARDLY ever used them. Now that I am getting back into climbing and reading how great every one seems to think Aliens are are, I searched thru my garage and found them. To my dismay they all seemed worn in the following manner: The cables were about to break and the mesh trigger sleeves were damaged. These units were made before the nylon sleeve was added and the springs were made to fit inside the cams. Since I know I hardly ever used these guys I am wondering if the new ones have the same wear problems. I have some TCUs made by Byrne when he was at Metolius and they are still very usable. So disparity in wear would be a big factor in deciding which cams I'd buy.

I agree well put. And I second your view of the abilities of the "bolters." Knowing one of them, I can say that besides being an excelent climber he is also an genuinely nice guy who has made a great contribution to Cascade climbing.

Nah - chipping is the murder of......

Great discussion. My take is that it is not so much that guidebooks should promote one style over another but rather promote all styles. If TRs where given real status and legitimacy maybe there would be less incentive to bolt. Here are two concrete examples: the oft’ mentioned Dan’s Dreadful - its easily TR’d and kind of a squeeze job anyway. Even if it had never been lead I still think it should not be bolted for those reasons alone. Out at the Fun Forest : A truck load of bolts have been placed on top rope routes that had already been climbed claimed the FA and renamed the routes and the area. It’s all climbing to me sport mountains, trad. “big wall” toproping , bold ,not bold.

Yossarian is right Index is a great area - maybe the best in WA. But...the camping sucks in the imediate area.

The Prince and Donna...hmmmm

REI and Marmot have guidebooks. Its out off hwy 2 halfway between Stevens Pass and Monroe

The Index guide is correct the tunnel was originally used to test tunneling equipment check out this site: Robbinstbm.com. The UW began to use the site after Robbins cleared out. Before the access road to the tunnel was graded the whole area in front of the wall was a swampy mess much of the year.

Cavey - Any PMs I have sent were rejoinders to one sent from your "friend." Since I have access to the complete discourse every time I sign on I would be more than happy to "cut and paste" them to this thread. Tim or Jon have my permission to post the entire discourse as well. I do not think they contin anything inconsistent with what I have advocated here but they will prove to be inconsistent with what you have said. Simply put you have either been lied to or are doing so yourself. Appearently your facts regarding Arron where wrong too. Your comments here exactly prove my point that a debate based on goodwill will be more effective than on based on anger, lies, threats and rants. So you can start now and answer my question as to what routes you've chopped and why. We would all be able to learn from you -after all you have clearly stated your intent to send a message to those reprobate bolters. Just think - you can double or triple the effect of just chopping a single route - DDD - and relive past glories as well. Hey now there is some "sarchasm".

SpecialEd - I would prefer no threats and exagerated statements involving testicle size. I would prefer the chopper telling the bolter if possible why he felt they were bad. Clearly Cave thinks he knows who bolted DDD but Viktor's post suggests he is wrong. Repeated threats and promises just reduce the whole debate to a childish set of rants. Most people tune out. Caveman Quote:"And oh yeah the next time I do O space I will be choppin' any rap bolts, I promise. So all you people out there placing stupid bolts I will be on the prowl to chop them" "I will" does not appear to be seeking consensus with the climbing community. Neither do some of Cavies other comments seem to be searching for a consensus. Do a search on the website for discussion of this issue you will see its been talked about ad nuseum. I even clearly stated I think the route s/b chopped. Yet Cavie clearly suggests otherwise. Is he listening? As I have said before a reasoned discussion based on mutual goodwill will produce the best results. Note that I am not saying that everyone s/b mamby pamby merely that they should aruge clearly and directly in a civil manner.

Special Ed - See my post above for my suggestion. Cave - Actualy in an earlier thread I agreed with chopping the bolts on DDD.

Cave - Quote - "Just don't go to one of my favorite crags and start bolting lines that have been established classics or testpieces and lead by someone with more balls than you." Now calm down when have I ever suggested that I was going to do that or are you just trying to insult my manhood. Jeesh! You're right you are are not PC - just a ranting fool. I am sure who ever bolted it gets the picture by now and has stopped even listening to you. The reason I asked what kind of bolts were used is because if they were for example long life (Petzl) removing them would be more problematic than if they were wedge or five piece. See - I was trying to find a excuse for your laziness in not removing them sooner. Not to be PC but simply removing them and telling the bolter your reasons and perhaps even posting them here would accomplish at least as much as the never ending "I am going go chop those gosh darn bolts" BS.

Specialed - Reread what I wrote. I was never or at least never meant to argue what you think I was arguing. I was simply stating that bolt choppers rarely stand up and take specific responsibilty for their actions. This potential situation with DDD aside Cave has refused to do so as well. What kind of bolts were used on DDD? Seems like it could have been removed easily without a posse or such a large number of declarations of intent.

Specialed - WHo was arguing for bolts?

YIKES - Did I even screw up. Its Caveman not Cap't. Guess the letter C is confusing to me!