Peter_Puget

The New York Times is running a story on the execution on Haifa Street. Reporter Mark Glassman has commented: ... the AP director of photography told him the photographer was 50 meters from the scene of the assassination; the AP has asserted elsewhere in this April 6 Editor & Publisher story that the photographer was 300 meters from the murders. I didn't go back but Didn't J_B refer to this story? ... In correspondence that we have not posted on the site, we sought the expert opinion of the prominent former New York Times photographer D. Gorton regarding the photograph. Mr. Gorton's analysis of the photo is consistent with our comments regarding the photo on the site and with our interpretation of the quoted AP statements. Gorton concluded that: The event appears to have been unfolding for some time, since the kneeling man and prone man are still and have assumed positions that I presume they were ordered to take. ... The photographer is elevated ... I would estimate the distance between 15 and 25 meters. The distance would be the same if the lens were "normal" but an enlargement of the print had occurred. This may be a "blow up," in other words. ... So, the assassination picture has all the earmarks of a planned image, indicating that the photographer had taken most of the considerations that I have written about above. Gorton was later shown an uncropped image of the photograph. He said: There is nothing about this alternate version that would trouble my initial analysis. ... Viewed in this light, I believe that collusion between the terrorists and the news media is quite possible. It certainly happened in the US. Why would Iraq be different? The photo appeared to portray an insurgency that "controlled the streets" of Baghdad, where the insurgents could kill with impunity. In a similar vein, many of the Southern lynching photos that we have studied give a similar message. Their purpose, in part, was to dispirit and undermine attempts to ensure equal rights in the US South, along with terrorizing African Americans and their allies. It is profoundly ironic that the lynched men in the AP photo were voter registration/election workers. It recalls to me and my wife our work in the Southern civil rights movement. I would remind those obscurantists among us that this thread was begun in repsonse to the completely bogus award given the AP. Events unfold.... While in your local Starbucks buy tomorrows issue.

link Still trying to find area #51

February had better rock climbing conditions than the average August! The saeson is over three months old right now!

Oh yea ChucK that the media has itself carried on a debate regarding the press and its relationship to the insurgents and to my knowledge hasn't, at least lately, been debating whether it should publish photos of the throngs waiting for the Pope should give you a clue that your equivalencies are just plain silly.

You're just being silly Chuck. You're strategy is to say "tell me where cold turns to hot". You imply that there is no difference (comparing a politician kissing a baby to the Haifa pictures. ) I say the difference is there and obvious to all who can see. I accepted your position as honest and agreed that there was no help for you. You are to keep up the metaphor blind. Note: I did not use Sloth's terminology and call you disingenuous or an idiot. I am not b &W I am just not playing your silly 7th grade debate game. Here is my earlier reply to you: Vision please!

On those very foggy Vantage days, the south facing slopes of the Tieton are often bathed in sunlight.

With a 300 mm lense no doubt!

I do not think that the AP should have used these photos . In using them the AP moves from being an observer/reporter with only a small impact on the event to a willing partner with the insurgents.(*) An instrument to achieve their goals. In the middle of an insurgent campaign whose imediate goal (per the AP) was to stop the elections, the AP bought photograghs taken with the invitation of the "insurgents" and distributed these photographs. Note that the assailents are bare faced. At the very least these pictures send a very clear message to any in Iraq who were trying to work towards democracy. The AP is/was not a mere observer it is a participant in these event. An execution of unarmed election workers could only be called an insurgent "victory" by someone with a very twisted mind. (*) - The AP is actively funding the insrugents campaign. Indirectly by reproducing and distributing thier media (ie the pictures) And most likely directly when they pay for the pictures.

There's no evidence in the passage you quoted before this comment to back up your factual assertion that the photographer is related to ("has familial and tribal relations with") the insurgents. And to answer your question: from the beginning of time, blood ties have never stopped anyone from killing or threatening someone. (Hint: this is you being disingenuous. I mean, come on!) Come on? What a silly repsonse. I will admit that if I was writing in a slower fashion I would have indicated that the photag "probably" had relations..oh wait I did that in the same post. Disingenuous? No. But I will say flat out you are being disegenuous in your response and accusation. So patently disingenuous that you render yourself silly. So you backpedal in your very next statement, "summarizing" another quote: Backpedal? Nope just writing perhaps with a bit more accuracy. "Probably" does not equal fact. You're just speculating, but you act like you're not. LOL "Probably" means "probably" just as I wrote. You're just being silly and pretending to offer some sort of analysis. Please Sloth, you are just not up to the task. Assuming for argument's sake all of your assertions are correct, you are far more guilty of be "disingenuous" and "speculating" than I am. And since you seem to attack me for these actions you should feel some sense of shame. Step up and write better or sit down! I have added comments to the quote above.

I have been misquoted so many times in this thread that I am becoming convinced you must all work for the media in some form or another. I simply never said that the photoag was working for the insurgency but rather - "Your choice of the word "courageous" odd given that photographer for the excution shot was in fact an Iraqi most likely working in line with the desires of the resistance I believe that that AP itself agrees with this. See post above. I will admit that there is a chance that the photag was in fact working for the insurgency but I never said that.

link A source at the Associated Press knowledgeable about the events covered in Baghdad on Sunday told Salon that accusations that the photographer was aware of the militants' plans are "ridiculous." The photographer, whose identity the AP is withholding due to safety concerns, was likely "tipped off to a demonstration that was supposed to take place on Haifa Street," said the AP source, who was not at liberty to comment by name. But the photographer "definitely would not have had foreknowledge" of a violent event like an execution, the source said. Comment: Does it make any sense that the invited photag who has familial and tribal relations with the insurgents is hiding/running from the insurgents. AK? link Jack Stokes, the AP's director of media relations: Several brave Iraqi photographers work for The Associated Press in places that only Iraqis can cover. Many are covering the communities they live in where family and tribal relations give them access that would not be available to Western photographers, or even Iraqi photographers who are not from the area. Insurgents want their stories told as much as other people and some are willing to let Iraqi photographers take their pictures. It's important to note, though, that the photographers are not "embedded" with the insurgents. They do not have to swear allegiance or otherwise join up philosophically with them just to take their pictures. Summary:The stringer was informed of the event and probably had family and tribal relations with “insurgents.” The AP is acting as a conduit to help tell the insurgents stories. To be clear: the AP is acting as the media arm of the insurgents on of whose goals at that time was, by the AP’s admission, to disrupt the election process.

I repeatedly turned 29!

Again you miss the point. sigh. I never wrote that one photo may contain the history of the war. I never wrote that the event depicted were untrue in the sense that peopel weren't killed. Notice I am not usingthe word disingenuous or the word idiot. Best comment on the award I have read:

Ouch!

Would they have been taken if there were no photographers?

Here is from of all places the Guardian: "But the absence of western reporters has raised questions over the ability of major news organisations to accurately report " Check out this link: link Just how many western reporters were kiled? IN what manner? Obvious blanks. AP hired? Are stringers hired? Aren't they independent contractors selling to the highest bidder? Imagine a barker shouting out: "Come here for photos of death! Increased circulation warranted! Do I hear $5? Do I hear $10....going once...going twice..." Sloth as usual makes personal attacks but as I suggested earlier read about the incidents I mentioned. Come to your own conclusions. Note that photos of the two incidents I cite are on the award site. @Billcoe - If you are equating reenacting the raising of the flag with journalists willingly going to a staged event in which people are to killed and their bodies desecrated for the medias willing flashbulbs, I give up.

The elections constitute a broad category which encompassing an entire process. The majority of this process occurred in 2004 and it should be noted did require the casting of many votes in 2004. Your choice of the word "courageous" odd given that photographer for the excution shot was in fact an Iraqi most likely working in line with the desires of the resistance.

link

I assume then that you have proof to back up your allegations of murder for hire by the Associated Press? Ratboy - I never said that the AP organized and paid for the murder of anyone. I invite you to research both incidents yourself.

Both incidents I have mentioned are almost certainly events “orchestrated” with the willing participation of the AP. The AP is not merely an observer of events but actively participating in them. In the context of the Pulitzer prize such considerations are of great importance. I should strive to be clearer in my posts as you did not understand the point of my post from the title or understand the background of the incidents referenced. Having relatives killed in war and wounded in war, I am fairly certain “the price paid”is far greater than any individual death so the answer is no they do not represent to price of war. In any event these incidents were orchestrated media events. Are they the price of a "free" press? Is the price worth it?

The actual Pulitzer Prize for news photography goes to the "Associated Press Staff for its stunning series of photographs of bloody yearlong combat inside Iraqi cities." One of these stunning photographs shows the Blackwater contractors strung up on the Fallujah bridge; another is the famous execution on Haifa Street. There are no pictures of the Iraqi elections. Since news by definition shows the truth, one would expect the insurgency so lovingly depicted in these AP photos to have triumphed. But since that never happened and prospects grow dimmer by the day, the Pulitzer should be awarded instead for Poetry, since according to the Greeks history is reserved for things as they are but poetry may deal with things as they should be. The award of the Pulitzer to this disgusting series of photographs should be welcomed by posterity. Fifty years hence people can look back at the work of people who called themselves journalists and judge. The photographs themselves are available at the Pulitzer website.

Dru - This is even better! Unit Structures

When I was a child I......

The route to the left of the large left facing corner on left side of wall. Not sure of names. P1 was dirty and wetish if my memory is correct. Getting to the top is easy plus you get to check out the micro crimper short routes along the top as well.