Lambone

hey dude, I didn't ask you to come into this discussion. but now your here, so I'm just curious. seems like if you were opposed to it, there wouldn't be any problem in sharing that information with us. and if your not opposed to people who use power drills in the wilderness, then well...yeah I think people should know about that too. The discussion began with whether or not to turn in a power driller, but whether or not one belives power drilling is ok is the fundemantal issue at hand.

do you have one? you sure ask alot of questions for one who doesn't seem to want to provide answers. It is a simple question really, a straightforwad answer would help me understand you points in this thread more clearly. just an update from the front page - 37 out of 88 people would rat the driller out. 42%

uh, seems to me they are pretty concerned with wilderness bolting....the California case being the most recent example. Am I wrong? What is your stance on Wilderness Power Drilling Mattp?

Yes, would I go as far to turn them into the cops....eh, probly not. However with the Yosemite camping situation, I believe the Park Service is also part to blame for failing to provide enough affordable walk-in first-come-first-serve camping. Still not sure If I would rat in the bolting circumstance either. It'd have to really affect me personaly before I did. I know if I had spent a long time climbing in an area in traditional style in accordance with the rules, and some yahoo with a bulldog came along and blasted bolts in a line that I had spent years training for in order to do it ground up by hand...I'd seriously consider it.

apparently you are not aware that glen just gradumacated from UW. I think he is in for one hell of a boost in standard of living regardless of where he is!

I don't buy the argument that if you break one law or rule then you are not allowed to support any other laws or rules. That is bullshit. If that were true then this world would be chaos. It's like yeah if I smoke pot I might as well just kill people too because I have allready broken one law. Or, I can't support drunk driving laws because I roll the stop sign in my neighborhood every morning. That just doesn't make any sense.

I think it comes down to whether or not you will like your job enough to overcome all the things that suck about the east coast. Otherwise you will just be back soon. Tough call glen, I think you'll make the right choice...and just remember...there is only one thing that is permanent in this life... Congrats by the way.

They were power drilled Dwayner, you know that. Do you have a point to make? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Alex that put those routes up, but I'm not speaking for him. I think those routes are ok, yet stupid...but whatever.

My first day skiing in Montana (Beartooth Pass in October) my party triggered a HUGE avalange. we did everything wrong you possibly could, including leaving the shovels in the car. Launched off a cornice onto a windloaded slope....2 ft of fresh onto of summer ice. Skied right down into a huge run-out zone death trap where we watched eachother fall down the mountain, one after another. Decided to ski the slope again and hiked up near the cliffband on the side. Halfway up the entire slope released. We hugged the rocks and missed the slide by literally 6 inches. Not hiking straight up the middle of the slop was the one smart decision we made that day...which probly saved our lives. Oh-what I wouldn't give to be young and dumb again.

Kurt, I think what Merv means is that his opinons, ethics, beliefs...what have you, are not bound by a boundry line on a map. I can respect that...I don't necesaraly agree with it, but it's a worthy standpoint. Why do you have to be such a hater?

hey uh, Fairweather....I'm not sure if you are serious or what...but this is what the FS guy has to say about your camera: There is another issue at hand besides breaking the law or disrespecting the Wilderness... How about honoring all the hardmen/women out there who have put in bolts with a hand drill over the decades. Pretty damn disrespectful to them too.. Although I guess I'm just preaching to the choir since most everyone seems to be agains power drilling in wilderness areas here.

I guess it sorta depends for me. In most cases, if I knew about it and it was just one route and I was really upset about it....I'd probly just go quietly remove them and patch the holes. Although I admit that I have no experince here. If it was some asshole selfish bolter who just ignored the rest of the community and did whatever he wanted and was slapping in routes/bolts all over the place with total disregard then I'd probly seriously consider turning him in. It would be a tough choice for me and take carefull consideration, I would more want the offender to get publicly humiliated rather then jail time and a huge fine...I don't necesarily agree with the penalty, and am glad in the California case that the authorities are flexible and cooperative. You guys are both right and do have a good point though. It is sort of a Catch 22. Hard to know what the final outcome would be, although in this case I think it will be ver all good. I think it is important that the Feds know that it is just a few rouge bolters out there commiting this act, which is not supported or commited by the community as whole. However, by climbing routes like on Mt Garfeild....climbers indirectly support/condone the act.

The Wawona Tunnel must really piss you off, not to mention granite countertops, gravel roads, Mt. Rushmore, and the stone lions at the Seattle Art Museum. Please note that we're not discussing whether bolts are valid, but rather the effect of method of placement vis-a-vis the law, enforcement of motorized tool bans in wilderness areas, and how to maintain climber access. Please note off white, that we are discussing the Wilderness here, not your countertop.

While chuck and Off White seem to think I am implying or proposing solutions....I contend that I am meerly asking questions in reponse to the recent occurance in California. Where apparently someone tipped off the Feds that this guy was power drilling. I'm wondering what percentage of the climbing community would do that? So although you guys are both moderators under some percived higher authority here, I'd appreciate it if you quit jumping on me about my opinions. This is a problem, not because I said it should be...but because there are people out there doing it. Whether or not you support bolts or power drills, you have to admit that breaking the laws enforced by the land managers affects our communities relationship with them in a negative way correct? So, are you suggesting that we as a group passively support these actions by keeping quite about what we know? I guess the answer is YES, which is what the poll is about. Personaly I think if a few people get busted it would dissuade the masses...the gym rat power drill feinds from running out to blank granite faces all over americas wilderness with their power drills, and making a real bad name for climbers in this country in general. Bottom line is I believe in the Wilderness ethic and do not not believe climbers desrve to be exempt from it, just beacuse a bolt way up on some wall somewhere isn't visible from the trail.

I suppose I should have put a bit morethought into the wording... My goal was not to start a huge debate. The article about the guy who got busted got me thinking....the FS guy said alot of their knowlege comes from tip offs, and I was wondering how many climbers would turn in someone breaking this law. You can pull the...would you rat on guy smoking pot, or wife speeding thing....but that is not the issue here. The issue is climbers breaking the law and potentialy effecting our access and freedoms as a result. I agree with Merv. Some people like Lummox, think rating somebody out is a "fag" thing to do regardless of the reason or circumstance. I disagree...there are climbers out there doing bad things...I don't feel obliged to support them just because they climb.

I suppose I should have given a thrid option- Don't narc on them but chop the bolts.

If you knew somebody was putting up a route in a designated Wilderness with a power drill, would you notify the FS? Just curious...

Is "Elmer" a cc.comer?

wow dude, rowing around the world...that's intense! hope you don't get seasick easily! good luck!

These quotes answer some of the above questions/statements... This is kinda funny....it seems the FS guy is not really sure about this... huh? which is it?

Yes, allthough they did try to very well ban the use of bolts and all fixed anchors in the Wilderness not long ago. With more Power bolters out there I wouldn't be suprised one bit if they try again. I am not anti-bolt....I am anti-not playing by the rules. Ever have school recess canceled because the school buly picked a fight. It sucks.

Am I being a "dick" Greg W....? I thought I was just passing on some information. Wether you percieve it as a friendly toast of victory or a friendly warning is up to you.... ...but i really don't think I am being a "dick."

yeah but Beyer is a lazy bolt chopper....doesn't remove bolts, just smashes them and turns them into invaluable trash. He also chops FA bolts that he doesn't agree with. Like WEML http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=41985&f=50&b=0 but that's not really what this thread is about.

I wonder if the FS made him go clean up his dirty work... Sounds like he pled ignorance...has, what a crock of shit!

Link to Story