W

RE:A year ago no gave a rat's ass about all the people who: are freezing their asses off in some far off country, missing their families on a 6 month deployment, getting shot at, and even dying for YOUR protection. Personally, I've never had a negative opinion of the military. If I have any issue it is with governments not being able to get along with each other, therefore the safety of the public, and more tangibly the military, gets put into jeopardy. Sometimes we have to do what we have to do- right now we're doing it. But independent of this current conflict, don't you think that there may be something for both you and the entire public to gain from the citizens of this country giving critical thought to improving our relations with the world? What's so fucked up about it? Obviously you don't enjoy war, no one does, so is it possible to be able to defend ourselves while also seeking to extinguish the antagonism between ourselves and potential enemies? That seems like it would be in the best interest for all. RE:I, and hundreds of other men and women, work my ass off for YOU. I don't want to be treated as a hero, I just want respect.[/QB] You have respect, and you do work your ass off and you do put your life on the line. But why do you need and demand respect for doing a job you volunteered to do? If I might ask, with all due respect,- did you volunteer for the service because you cared about me and your fellow citizens, wanted to work for us and protect us (which, indeed, are all part of the job), or because you wanted to be respected?

Bronco, I see your point; but while I won't speak for everyone, I think this is the central issue behind our demand to "do something about it": in trying to "understand why the terrorists are mad at us"- no one is trying to justify the attacks on 9/11- at least, I'm not. There can never ever be anything to justify that. The terrorists may be bloodthirsty murderers, but that is beside the point- we're merely dismissing them as some abstract evil entities that have been sent here from hell to ruin our lives; I'd like to go further into it than that;I want to know and understand the psychological processes that make people do horrible things like this. This has nothing whatsoever to do with feeling "compassion" for the terrorists; rather, perhaps through an understanding of what makes people do evil things, we can gain insight into a more effective and lasting response to these "evil" actions that will not be merely the same type of psychological reaction, albeit for a "noble" cause, that will not only eliminate their further threats, but also bring about a new relationship and order in the world that is not one of endless conflict and antagonism, but one of cooperation and mutual existence. While I think we are doing what needs to be done right now, it is also very important to ensure that our actions are not merely RE-actions to the terrorists. Using military action might be the right thing to do- in this case I think it is- all I'm saying is that let's not so righteously assume that force is always the best course of action. The above post mentions that the terrorists felt they were defending themselves...well obviously you and I know that killing people at their desks is far from that. But right or wrong- that is apparently what the terrorists FELT THEY WERE DOING. It's messed up, yes! But if you go into the matter further to see how people's actions have been warped by the illusions under which they live and have been conditioned, perhaps we can avoid falling into the same psychological traps, and see where we might already be caught. No matter how righteous our cause, the mark of true righteousness and humility begins with a constant awareness and inquiry into our actions and motives. Only then will a true "justice", or whatever we want to call it, be served.

Almost forgot- I am not sure what the insulation material is, I would have to check and I don't have them in front of me. If it's not Primaloft my guess is that they are Thinsulate.

These were a gift several years ago, so they probably do not make them anymore. I have no idea how much they were new, but I've never seen a pair of exp. mitts for less than $100. They are still available if you are interested.

CC- What is the "goal" then? Is it actually "payback" then? Does that have any lasting value if it might actually breed further retaliation and more deaths of your own people, maybe someone you know and love? Are you suggesting, then, that your personal gratification in the form of "payback" is worth the deaths of innocent people? Is that really satisfactory to you? If so, then would you also say that the potential deaths of your own children, or your neighbor's children, would be worth it to achieve the end goal of retaliation? Or are you truly interested in making the terrorists answer to their actions, and truly interested in not seeing any further violence and killing? Which is it?

Caveman, I see your point- however, as I also understand where SC is coming from, I ask you this- In terms of "after the fact"- how do we short circuit the chain of retaliation in which the world is caught? Do you have any ideas? "Eradicating evil" sounds great, but is obviously as impractical as doing nothing and hoping we don't get run over by our enemies. The terrorists, however twisted their ideology, honestly thought they were retaliating for something we did to them or their people. We can retaliate forever- look at Israel and Palestine. Neither of them are interested in peace, obviously, though they continually talk about the "peace process". I think everyone agrees that war is a bad thing- if we are really serious about that, if we don't want our children to be killed in a future war, then I think we will think critically and seriously about how to bring about a world in which there is real security and peace- I think SC is trying to suggest that our relationships in the world are not right and need to be reexamined. This doesn't mean we blame or condemn ourselves, only that we recognize false values and destructive actions and work to correct those. And I don't anyone can make a legitimate case that military action is the wrong thing to do right now given the way the world is. But I do think all the things we have branded inevitable can be changed. But you have to start by realizing there is no blueprint for making this happen. thoughts?

Rodchester, while it may not "define" nation building per se, I think what Tom is referring to in the case of Iraq is that the CIA was funding and arming Saddam throughout the time of the Iran-Iraq war when Iran-US antagonism was at its peak(read:giving a man who less than a few years later we referred to as an "evildoer" lots of money and weapons so he could mustard-gas the Iranians). And like the above comment suggests, I believe that we also at one point not long ago were sending money to the Taliban. I'm glad to see the Taliban go and am all for the dismantling of terrorist organizations however it happens. under the circumstances we are faced with potentially damning prospects regardless of what we do. However, I think Tom has some valid gripes with our government. Many of the very same people who on domestic issues assert that our government is not to be trusted for anything recoil at the suggestion that our foreign policy is or ever has been misguided and self-serving. Is this so audacious a suggestion? All of a sudden if one questions the government policy one is "un-American" and a traitor. I think real security and peace in the days ahead will come only through being more aware and cognicent of the motives and actions of our government in its dealings with the rest of the world. The government is what we make it. If we as a nation are as righteous as many assert, then our actions will serve the interests of all, not just what is beneficial to us- which includes setting up puppet governments sympathetic to our economic and military interests and then looking the other way while they slaughter their own people, all the while we are supposed to represent freedom and justice and human rights. We can win this war while at the same time demanding something better and more noble of our leaders. [ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: W ]

1) Feathered Friends 40 Below Down Pants----used on 3 Alaska trips. Good Condition. Great for around camp, also would work well for a Denali summit day. ----$150.00 2) Moonstone Liberty Ridge Sleeping Bag----used on 3 Alaska trips. Very good condition. I have twice added extra down to this Gore-tex bag, giving it 4 oz total overfill of 800 down. The bag has performed well in temps colder than 30 below F. It is washed, and has been well cared for. ----$200.00 3) Gregory Novus Expedition Backpack----6000 cu. in. carrying capacity; removable external pockets, ski pockets, compression straps. Fully equipped for major expeditions, but works well also for Cascade winter mountaineering, Rainier, etc. Very good condition. Comfortable load carrying suspension.----$200.00 4) REI men's Large fleece pants.----Full side zips. 200 weight fleece. Worn twice, practically new.----$25 FIRM 5) Marmot Expedition Gloves.----Worn on one expedition. Very good condition. Great for climbing or skiing. Mens Large.----$25 FIRM (a very good deal!) 6) Marmot Expedition Mitts.----A mitt with a separate index "trigger" finger for dexterity. Brand new! Never worn! (Got them as a gift and already had several pairs). Mens Large.----$75 FIRM

The approach took us five hours. We did the Direct route, which took us about 16 hours camp to camp (camp being at the standard col before you drop off into the north side cirque...). We counted 22 pitches, 17 of which were 5th class. The lower route has some loose rock, especially at the belay atop the pitch rated "5.9+", which felt harder than that. Two belays in fact were less than inspiring, but adequate. Unlike many alpine climbs, many of the harder pitches seemed quite sustained instead of one or two moves of 5.9 or 10 sandwiched around 150 feet of 5.6, and bear in mind that after 15 or 20 pitches, the 5.9's start feeling pretty stiff. You might want to bring a #3.5 or #4 camalot, there are some wider cracks as I remember. A #3 at least is needed. If you overlap the topos in Beckey's guide, there is at least one pitch missing on the Direct topo. The offwidth high on the route is easy to bypass by stepping out right after 10 feet, and it's likely you will want to by that time. Also, when we reached the Beckey penji points at pitch 20, the "5.9" pitch on the crest listed in Nelson's book was a runout slab climb and maybe sandbagged a bit. Being fatigued, the penjies to the 4th class gully are an easy out. That's what we did of course. Finally, the "3rd and 4th class" section involved climbing through a cascading waterfall from runoff from a melting snowpatch on the huge ledge above it. There also was virtually no protection here and the water made things quite serious. That was in August. I'd recommend going late for this route for this reason. Enjoy. I think this is, all things considered, the best route I've done in the N. Cascades.

The best reports are always from places like Lake Mead, AZ- drunken redneck boaters crashing into each other and getting in fist fights, the meth and crank busts at Lake Powell, and then there's Great Smoky- drunken redneck mountain men terrorizing visitors.

The normal ramp through the Carbon looks dicey but I bet it will go- it might take some persistance and creativity. I once had to climb down into one jumbled crevasse and climb out the other side in there. But I have to say, its been a long time since the lower ridge looked that rocky in early May. In fact I can't believe how much exposed rock there is right now in general, especially compared to 1999 (the big snow year). If it's warm the lower ridge is, and will be this year particularly, a rockfall hell. Be careful.If you do make it onto the ridge I wouldn't be surprised to find a whole lot of exposed ice on the upper ridge. By the way, that's a really great picture Phil.

*Eve Dearborn Memorial *Triple Couloirs *NE 54th St. from 20th Ave. NE to Ravenna Blvd.

When you break out of the woods near the south end of Colchuck Lake, into big talus, aim uphill towards Colchuck Peak; when you gain the terminal moraine, follow it's crest until you are right across the snow gully from Backbone. Staying on the crest of the moraine is out of the way of most rockfall. Personally, in four trips up routes on the north face I've never had any rockfall incidents. But yes, stories abound. Party inflicted rockfall is especially common. [This message has been edited by W (edited 05-15-2001).]

Matt- That sounds like the Colchuck Glacier- but, and maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, if you are advocating camping right at the foot of the route or on the moraine at the foot of the glacier- this is a REALLY BAD idea. More than one person I know has nearly been creamed by rockfall off Dragontail, while on or near the base and the moraine area, including Gary Brill. In fact, check out Jim Nelson's description and warnings about rockfall from the face. Rockfall will especially be a concern in June with melting snow. If bivying at all, the logical bivi is Colchuck Lake, and both the Aasgard or Colchuck Glacier descents take you through the site on your way back so there is no backtracking or climbing to retrieve gear regardless. However, with a light alpine pack and no bivi gear, the lake is only about 1.5 hours give or take from the car- so with the attendant permit hassles it's just as well to not bother bivying anyway.

I've haven't done the Booker/Buckner col thing. But to get from Horseshoe Basin to Sahale Arm: stay high in the basin, aiming for a short buttress arm coming down from high on Sahale Peak. In early season if it is really snowed up, it would probably be possible to skirt the base of this buttress and climb the broad depression behind it, up steep ground, and right onto Sahale Arm. Most of the summer however, this depression is steep rock slabs with running water and possibly calving snow chunks. We were able to climb a short snow couloir on the front of the short buttress to gain the buttress's crest, then climb the buttress via some loose and devious 4th class with some attention getting exposure (we were unroped), which soon leads to easy ground. Where the buttress steepens dramatically you can traverse out left onto the top of the aforementioned depression, above all the b.s., and continue right across onto Sahale Arm.

F- It's about 8 pitches of 5.6-5.9 and a lot of running belayed 3rd/4th. The offwidth is nothing to worry about- it's a grunt, yes, but the first part takes #3 to #4 camalots. You'll want a #5 for the middle section, and you can walk it along with you. Higher up the pitch there is other sized (#1 camalot, etc.) gear available on the wall to the left if I remember correctly. The offwidth is a straight in crack in a deep right facing corner. Don't bother bivying- why carry all that gear? the climb is long but not that hard to do in a day. If you are determined to bivi- it would be possible in several spots below the Fin. But not sure I'd want to bivi in the middle of a rockfall prone face. The Fin is an amazing feature. Expect some routefinding here; there are several options, all of them in the 5.8-9 range. We took a good crack system on the left, then a long exposed crack/ramp across to the right and then up to finish in the chossy third triple couloir. If Aasgard is snowed up you'll want an axe- it is steep and long with bad runouts. And the snow there seems to always be hard. Also, getting onto Backbone requires crossing a steep snow gully, and the initial descent from the summit is steep although for a only 300 feet. We went in September w/o crampons or axes- what a mistake! The gully getting on the climb was hard snow with rocks below, and the descent off the summit was steep gray ice, also with big rocks 300 feet below. A sharp rock in one hand and nut tool in the other provided a nervewracking but feasible solution to get down, but an axe and crampons would have been worth carrying at that time. In June the snow might be softer but use your own judgement and go prepared as you see fit. This was just my experience. Have fun, it is a nice route.

yes. Piss on the USFS and this "demo" project. They are using deception to get their expenses paid for by climbers and wilderness users. If you get a court date, I understand that you can blow off the court appearance as well, for the judge will see that the ticket is unenforceable and your appearance is NOT required. I think.

I'll give you something a little more productive: The ice cliff itself presents a serious rock and icefall hazard, but early in the season it is a little safer. Large crevasses split the glacier by mid June, maybe earlier. I haven't done this route proper, but climbed over the north ridge and downclimbed a steep snow couloir to gain the upper ice cliff glacier enroute to girth pillar. 2 things are worth mentioning: this was in mid June, and the slabs next to the great gendarme on the north ridge were holding a lot of winter snow and ice, which began falling regularly as soon as the sun hit it. The upper cirque of the glacier is very dangerous as a result. Also, the bergschrund was huge and, at that time, unpassable below the couloir. It was 30 feet across and presented about a 35 foot overhanging wall of snow-ice. We had to climb onto the rock about 200 feet right, into a difficult, 3 pitch corner system. This led us eventually to the normal ramp and put us back on route; however, for the ice cliff glacier route, I think you would have to rappel down this chossy, shattered ramp to regain the main ice cliff couloir by this time,and probably would lose some gear. Go as early as you can to avoid this schrund problem.

Actually, you can even go the old old school route and just use two clove hitches and dispense with the mechanical devices altogether...costs you nothing. there's also, for the grigri, the method of drilling a small hole through it near the p in "Petzl" (don't hold me to that, I can't remember right off) and then attaching a tie-off (I think this may be what Erik is talking about) and clipping the tie off to your chest harness to keep the gri gri upright; again, though, more than one person in the know says that is not recommended as it increases the likelihood of the rope not catching while upside down. However, if you are backtied like you should be, it helps the rope feed itself with less manual intervention, and you don't need to worry about going to the deck.

I did a lot of research on solo aid devices awhile back, and determined that the grigri I already owned was essentially the same device as the solo aid or soloist. Certainly the Silent Partner is smoother but it costs way too much. I talked to Wren Industries and they highly recommend backtying with the soloist and solo aid, and the soloist (I think that's the cheaper one) won't catch an upside down fall. With both I think you have to hand feed it. I also did some research on the web; Nate Beckwith suggests, for a Grigri, to let it hang from your belay biner w/o using a chest harness if you are aiding; it will definitely need to be hand-fed but is more likely to catch an upside down fall also. Still, you need to backtie. But I feel really comfortable solo-aiding with this system and it isn't a pain in the ass once you get it dialed. Beckwith also only suggests modifying the grigri (sawing off the flap and filing it down) if you intend to solo-free with it, and in this case you would also run it through a chest harness. Again, though- dangerous for aid climbing cause the rope will feed all too well in an upside down fall. So if you have a grigri already I think you'd be wasting your money on the soloist or solo-aid. The Silent Partner sounds like the best overall device for either aid or free but screw that $225 pricetag.

now now. let's not start any mountaineers jokes. i was thinking about a two for one sale. did anyone get angela's number?

oh no, nothing personal taken. I'm just trying to get a read. but thanks. i'm irritable today. it's only tuesday and i'm also a short timer at work. chongo? hell. I've got something for you, caveman. I bought a whole case of Team Harsh Realm T-shirts, and i'll drop em on your head.

Caveman, So you tell me to "get lost", then half an hour later you start shit talking me some more. Nice touch. I was happy to drop it, to tell you the truth. My posts weren't meant to attack Erik personally and had even less to do with you. So what's with the vitriol?

Doxey- The gully is 30-40 degrees. At that time of year a good strategy, if you are concerned about the snow, would be to camp in the trees atop the waterfall in the basin below Redoubt, then climb the gully early in the AM. It doesn't get sun until mid morning and should only take you 1-2 hours to climb. And hey, don't be so hard on yourself- erring on the side of caution, especially with avalanches, will make an old climber out of you someday.

Did I call him a thief? I was trying to make a point about "found" gear is all. So what is your point? Erik doesn't forget things anymore, and Captain Caveman has money so he doesn't need to steal (meaning otherwise you would?). Reality is that forgotten gear is usually a goner, but I'm only suggesting that it needn't be so cut and dried if you happen to be the finder. Don't take it so personally. And speaking of personally, Erik, what's the symphony comment supposed to mean? I assume you looked at my profile which lists my "home" as Issaquah. That is a partial truth. So if that was meant to separate you and me as the rich stuffy guy from the eastside vs. the homey from Tacoma who's walked the hard mile, put a lid on it until you know what you are talking about, BRO. Of course, you might be half kidding, but since I got two "rolling eyes" faces from you two, and a "whatever dude" I assume otherwise.