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Dylan, You might have already checked it, but there is a thread about the South Buttress on Page 2 of the climber's board in which I gave another guy the beta on the 1954 route, which I did (from the Ruth Amp.) in 1996. However, I can help you out on the entire buttress beta as well; in 1995, our first attempt, we reached the top of Lotsa face and got weathered out. So we decided to retreat the lower South Buttress, in the blind, to the Kahiltna, knowing only that it had been done only once, that being the previous year (1994). From Margaret Pass we traversed along the ridgecrest, passing over two 12,200' peaks- the first of which involved some exposed traversing on blue ice, followed by an extremely sharp knife-edge with a short corniced section and lots of exposure. The second, peak 12,240, which stands in full view of Kahiltna Base, was easy but there is substantial cornicing on the north side of the ridge, and there are also some crevasses in the ridgecrest. From 12,240, for our descent to the se fork, we had no idea where the other's route had gone, and from above it was impossible to see- so we guessed, and guessed very wrong- descending to the skier's left, straight toward the Moonflower Buttress on Hunter, looming directly across the canyon. One of my partners took a 30' crevasse fall as we end-ran parallel to a crevasse, then we downclimbed 1800 feet of 45-60 degree ice in a terrifying gutter scoured by the house sized seracs looming directly over our heads the whole way; but it was the only way down now that we were over half way down the 4000' descent. It sucked and I felt lucky to have lived in retrospect, one of those "learning experiences" in the formative years, so to speak. Anyway this isn't important, what is important is that you do not go this way. The other group as I recall climbed from the col between Mt. Francis and 12,240, and from what I've observed at base camp it looks straightforward. Watch the avy danger though. By the way, the ridge from 12,240 to Margaret Pass is spectacular, both for the ridge traverse/climbing and for the views of Hunter Foraker, and Denali on three sides. It was one of my most memorable days in the Alaska Range. If you have any more questions let me know, and good luck! ps- I don't know about the remaining four, but Tahoe Rowland I believe was killed a year or two later in an avalanche somewhere, and Mike Vanderbeek, an NPS climbing volunteer, died in a fall from 16,000 on the west buttress in 1998 while on a rescue mission in poor weather.

Dave, I have a great deal of experience in outwitting Uncle Sugar in Yosemite. However, for fear of them catching on to some of my tricks, I am not going to publicly disclose them. However, I will tell you this: No matter where you park and try cooking and sleeping, you'll get caught sooner or later. Eventually they may even start recognizing you and will boot you from the park. It CAN be done, but don't be surprised to have a spotlight on your vehicle at 4 AM and a heavily armed ranger beating on the window with a flashlight. Even if you are hiding in there with your windows and curtains shut, and have been discreet, a common trick is for them to announce either in person or over the loudspeaker "we know you're in there, come on out!!" when they see a vehicle like a VW bus or a van, where someone might be sleeping. They may in fact have no inkling you're in there, but more than one sucker has surrendered and opened the door, to find the ranger walking away already, turning around surprised and going "oh, we didn't really know! well, good, now GET MOVING!" Truthfully, having pursued all avenues of existence in the valley, the best bet is to do Camp 4 ($3 a night, with a seven day limit until Sept. 1, then its 30 days) if you are going to be there more than a few days. In order to get a campsite in high summer and fall, you'll need to sleep in front of the kiosk or else show up no later than maybe 6 am to get a good place in line. The booth opens at 8:30 but usually by 7:30 there can be 30 or more people in line and often not everyone gets accomodated. Until last fall I had never been hassled sleeping in front of the kiosk; then I was rousted at 4:30 am by a ranger rudely shining a maglight in my eyes. He ordered me to "get moving", and I then watched him walk to his patrol car and drive away. Shaking my head, I walked 30 feet to another tree and resumed my sleep for another 2 hours. On one occasion the rangers did a midnight raid looking for dirt baggers in the camp, mistakenly wakening several campers when they missed seeing their tent tags. It's kinda heinous, but then it's kind of getting to be as much a part of the valley experience as Degnan's and granite. well almost. whatever you do, if you bend the rules be discreet as hell; the NPS is really watching climbers, and we have to take responsibility for our actions. Agree with the regs or not, Yosemite is a heavily used place and we need to foster a good relationship with the NPS or else there will be even more rules. Good climbing to you!

Though it didn't happen to me, several years ago I saw up close something worthwhile: While belaying at the 12th belay on the Zodiac, El Capitan, I watched the British climber leading the previous pitch blow a hook move 10 feet below me. He fell back, pulling piece after piece, including a 1/4" bolt 20 feet below him, struck a glancing blow off a ledge 35 feet down, at which point I could hear the air expire loudly from his lungs, then launched, head first, down the cliff. To the continued accompaniment of "thunk, thunk, thunk, thunk, thunk" (his pieces ripping), I watched in amazement as he disappeared down the overhanging wall. The last thing I saw was the bottom of his feet. An instant later, I heard an anguished groan, and the rope stretch catapulted him back upward; his contorted face appeared briefly, coming towards me, before he fell back again and out of view. Turns out he had ripped the entire pitch to within 20 feet of the belay, including 2 # 4 camalots in a hollow flake, fixed pins, the bolt, you name it, until a friend inverted in the crack and stopped him. Falling way past the belay, his fall had easily exceeded 175 feet! I screamed down to his partner, concerned about him. After a moment, and after calling out continuously, leaning far out from the wall, I could just see the two brits, now reunited at the belay; the leader was now wearing sunglasses (at twilight) and smoking a cig. His partner replied, in a thick british accent: "E'S ALRIGHT! E'S FINE! BUT E'S DONE FOR THE DAY!!!

Glenn, I did the south buttress 5 years ago, starting from the Ruth Amp. The west fork of the Ruth is mellow until 9000' where a crevassed icefall bars the way. There were very wide crevasses splitting almost the entire width of the glacier. We were able to pass the biggest one by going far to the left, but there was some exposure to hanging seracs. At the end of the canyon is no place to be if it snows a lot. The walls are high and the glacier very narrow. The 2200' foot ice face leading you out of here is avalanche prone. Since 96, it appears to have broken up considerably and there may now be some serious crevasse problems. Going in June (we did it in April) I'd be worried about the avy danger on this slope and in the canyon in general. Climb at night and choose your campsites with great heed in here! The "lotsa" face from 12400 to 13600 is composed of brittle, smooth, diamond hard 50 degree ice and is tiring with a big pack. This is the crux. Once on the buttress crest, the route is pretty simple, but a few corniced sections keep things interesting. We were heavy and so instead of finishing direct on the SE face, descended into Thayer Basin and crossed it, then climbed onto the Thayer ridge via another low angle but taxing blue ice slope. This ridge might be the most spectacularly beautiful place I have ever been. The east face falls away 10,000 feet to the Traleika Glacier! The climbing is easy along here. The high camp at 17,200 along the edge of Harper Glacier is a raw and unprotected place. The night we arrived the winds ravaged our camp. There is a good boulder to pitch the tent beneath, in a hollow right off the crest. The NE ridge is a nice way to hit the top, easy. Then we traversed Denali Pass the next day and so didn't have to drag all our gear higher than 18k. The route obviously is really long. we tried it the previous year and were defeated by weather and going too light (you don't hear the latter reason very often, but in this case it was actually true!). Our successful climb was a siege effort essentially, no fixed lines, but we double carried a great deal of the early sections of the route. While my style of climbing has since changed, and so I wouldn't do a route of this type again, I will disagree with you, J. The ridgecrest doesn't ascend much, no, but is a magnificent place. Full on views of the Ruth and Kahiltna. We spent 31 days on this climb (28 to to reach the top, 3 to carry over and descend to Kahiltna Base)and after day 2 in the Ruth Amp. didn't see another soul til 26 days later. This way was also nearly a high-level circumnavigation that allowed us to view all sides of the mountain and the surrounding peaks. [This message has been edited by W (edited 03-23-2001).] [This message has been edited by W (edited 03-23-2001).] [This message has been edited by W (edited 03-23-2001).]

VT- not trying to haggle over details, but exactly where is the 90' runout? I don't remember anything even close to that. Or were you half joking?

Yeah,the chockstone, from which the old knotted fixed line was dangling, I seem to remember being about 30 feet from the belay, but the bolt and the fixed line made that part protect well for me. If it had been just the bolt it would have been worse for sure. But I thought the real runout to be above the chockstone- easier climbing but no pro at all for awhile directly over a nice ledge...

I did the route in 1996, so I don't have anything to tell you about the new bolt or 2x4's; however, I can tell you this: The initial part of the pitch in question starts with a hard move into an overhanging offwidth/chimney deal, but quickly becomes more secure. At the time there was a tatty fixed line with several knots tied in it hanging down from a chockstone about 20-25 feet above the start of the pitch, to go with a really old looking 1/4 inch bolt. I want to say that a #5 camalot or a big bro would work here, but since I had neither with me on the climb don't take my word for it. You then climb onto the above mentioned chockstone, where you get a rest. Above looms a 5.7 full-on chimney. I don't remember it being all that hard to climb but I do recall that there isn't any protection for awhile-maybe 20-30 feet with the flat top of the chockstone directly below you to land on if you skate here, so don't biff it. If you have any chimney skills at all you'll be fine- it ain't that bad. Above this pitch is a pitch or two of wide, tiring crack climbing. Bring at least 1 #4 camalot. The pitch before the chimney is very cool- airy and little strenuous. Finally, be careful on the first pitch. The rock route out of the moat is often wet, and, although the climbing is fairly easy, protection is thin and infrequent on alternately slabby downsloping rock and decomposing granite. It gets really good after about 80 feet or so. Enjoy, the route is quite a workout.

Dru, I hope I didn't give the wrong impression, I absolutely in no way meant any disrespect to your friend nor was I questioning his decisions or actions. I was using his accident to make a point to someone else in the thread who seemed in my opinion to lack perspective. Some of my closest friends are hardcore skiers and snowboarders, and I myself climb and take tangible risks of my own. My friends and I who recovered David all saw him in the light that it could have just as well been any of us given the risks we all take. And it's strange, too, I bet had he made it down safely, all the naysayers who said "see, look what happens!" would have been saying "wow, that was cool" instead. By the way, he was skiing the ridge on 3 pin gear, which is enough to make most people pucker up thinking about it. He had climbed the ridge the day before from Thumb Rock, while his partners rested, exhausted and altitude sick, and skied it from 13,000'. The same day, I might add, that they had climbed to Thumb Rock from the Carbon. The next day, he and one partner went all the way to Columbia Crest and were returning to Thumb Rock when he had his accident. I heard a lot more about him from his family and the investigation afterwards and he sounded like an incredibly dedicated man. I did also read in some written statements from his partners and an adjacent climbing team that Dave was rather cavalier. Nonetheless, though I never knew him, I get the feeling that Dave probably was doing what he did with his eyes wide open. Unfortunately he paid the ultimate price, one he was obviously prepared to accept. [This message has been edited by W (edited 03-19-2001).]

Hey Philfort, I will answer your question- yes, I have seen the fabled hole. While on a climb of the Central Mowich Face in 1994, I thought I was hallucinating when I looked left and spied this feature. After climbing a few hundred feet further and getting some different aspects, I concluded it to really be a hole in the rock. I'd forgotten all about this! Pretty cool.

Hey Jedi, A common mistake people make on the approach from White river: When crossing lower Curtis Ridge after crossing the Winthrop Glacier- find the 7200 foot elevation and maintain that elevation until you reach the edge of the Carbon Glacier. You will find easy access to the Carbon there, but if you are tempted to contour up and across Curtis Ridge you will find no way to access the Carbon- the margin slope is a huge overhanging cliff of choss above 7200'. Ice conditions on Liberty vary greatly from year to year, and month to month. Even in May, I'd take maybe 4-6 screws and of course some pickets. Don't bother with rock pro. Two tools are nice but one and a standard mountain axe would work. The biggest source of the many rescues on Liberty each year is people being caught on the upper ridge or the summit slopes in severe weather. If there is a lenticular cloud cap, run away! Trying to find the Emmons, and then navigating down it in a whiteout is usually impossible for most. As Mtnclimber wisely points out, extra fuel is a good idea for this very reason- a possible prolonged bivouac at 14,000'. Even if the weather forecast is good. You never know. Have fun.

I did Sloan's west face a long time ago...starting at Bedal Creek in June. The brush on the trail sucks in places but is tame compared to some places I've been. It takes less than 2 hours to reach treeline at which point the terrain is a cruise. The Corkscrew route can be accessed by going over the saddle to the south of the peak to gain the glacier filling the basin below the south face. Wouldn't recommend the west face, btw. The upper half is low angle and will hold snow that currently no doubt will make the 5th class rock sections very wet. Even in summer when it's dry it's an uninteresting climb (mostly 4th class) on less than average quality rock. Nice views though and uncrowded.

I know a lot of people who go out skiing and snowboarding big faces in the Cascades and don't tell many about it. So don't assume anything hasn't been skied or ridden. Especially if you're spraying. Also, the News Tribune article, if we're talking about the same one, was about how no one has tried climbing the Willis Wall routes in 10 years, it said little or nothing about skiing it if I remember. FYI, I was climbing Ptarmigan Ridge in 1995 and watched two guys making figure 8's down Liberty Ridge nearby. And btw Dennis, the first descent of Thermogenesis has been accomplished already, it belongs to David Persson. But I hope you look better after your descent of Thermogenesis than he did; I would know- I'm the one who put him in a body bag. Be careful.