mattp

XXX, you may actually be right. On my block, where as I already mentioned blacks and people of middle east descent were not permitted until the 1970's, we have a black and Asian family. But in the Seattle city limits, the black and Asian families are overwhelmingly concentrated in the SE quadrant, are they not? I realize that Federal Way is a different story, and that a lot of middle class black and Asian families live in Bellevue, but Seattle is certainly segregated -- maybe not quite like Jacksonville, FLorida, or ... [add your favorite city here] but not altogether different. As I argued, to the objection of at least two others, I recognize that people living in Washington are much different than those living on the Eastern U.S. I was talking about Michigan, where I have personal knowledge, but I won't argue if you say that outward expressions of racial intolerance are greater in West Virginia or Kentucky, or produce maps and charts showing greater segregation. In the context of this election, how do you think this will influence things? When push comes to shove, and we are choosing between Bush term III and something that might be different, can Obama win votes in the midwest and south?

One more by the way: OffWhite got his answer, maybe. That's be cool if cc.com was in the present case useful for actually getting information in addition to pontificating from those looking for entertainment like me and Mr. F. What do you say, Mr. Off? Are you high fiving or looking for a bigger hammer?

By the way: good job on the training hikes. I have never hiked any of the standard Si, Mailbox, Tiger training hikes but lately I have been thinking that I might benefit from some of that.

I've already made it clear here, I think, that I believe they have produced a bad product. Beyond just word processing, I'm not impressed with their operating system development. I'm not an Apple guy, but there is a lot of truth to their recent add campaign about Microsoft Vista running like hell, as far as I have heard (this has not been forced upon me yet). Microsoft has been plagued by security problems and gliches and bloated software and you name the problem forever. Don't get me wrong: I realize it is a complex business and I appreciate the fact that revenues have supported development, but I just don't have a glowing sense that Microsoft has been best, only that they've been biggest. Back to the topic here: WordPerfect has been superior to Word in virtually every stage of development, as far as I have seen. I don't think Off White would have had his problem with WordPerfect -- not even for 30 seconds. I don't know how Microsoft took over the market but it is pretty clear to me that once they did so they launched a marketing campaign of planned obsolescence that makes Wirlpool and Maytag look like chumps. And I actually think the EU got it right. They have taken advantage of their marketing position to bundle products that I, for one don't want (and I bet you if we were in different positions and we were arguing about "free choice"). As a business model, perhaps impressive. As a model of "free market makes good for the people" I think not so much.

By the way: how was the double header last weekend? In my present condition, I can't imagine climbing both those peaks in a day.

Do you read the newspaper, Fairweather? Microsoft's "aggressive" business practices have been a topic of mention for AT LEAST 15 years. It is not a right wing vs left wing thing. Again I ask: do you have experience comparing Word to WordPerfect over the last two decades? Have you run recent versions of both? Maybe you've found some great aspects of Word that I've missed.

I'm not sure what your point is, Fairweather, except that if I say X, you are going to say Y -- just like in the McCain speech thread running concurrently. I wonder if here, just as there, you don't really know: have you run both Word and WordPerfect in every new version for the last 15 years? I have. I'm sure there are some who may think Word a better product, but I sure don't. The only reason I run Word is because everybody else does.

Office has done well, but do you think this is due to making their product obsolete every three years, to superior marketing, or maybe to unfair business practices?

I think Microsoft is one of the only companies whose software has purposefully not been "backwards compatible" - I wonder has this really increased sales or simply pissed everybody off for the last 20 years? I realize MS still carries the market, but I have always thought Corel WordPerfect a superior product. It still has some glitches like OffWhite is experiencing, though not with such a basic thing as indenting a lead paragraph.

Sovereign or so-we-reign? What’s the difference?

We just went to the first and second tier. The hike was borderline no good with lots of downed trees and brush and debris making it difficult to see what we were walking on in places; I doubt it has improved any. That's why I say some might not think it worth it but I don't think it took more than 45 minutes (didn't time it).

Thanks, Joseph. You apparently are a fan of them, too. I've gone through 3 pairs.

Both Static Point and the Far Side at Exit 38 have gated roads serving them. The revisions do provide more grounds for closing roads than prior versions and I think they've added a provision specifically banning trailbuilding. Somebody would have to sit down and carefully go over the material linked to figure out what it all means, though, and of course how any rules are actually implemented has a lot to do with how they may affect climbers.

DNR is updating WAC 332-52 to meet today's standards for public safety and natural resource protection on lands managed by the Department of Natural Resources. These rules for recreation and public access on DNR-managed lands were last updated 36 years ago. The focus of the revision is to improve the management of recreational activities and to provide information in a clear and understandable way. Located on public lands in Washington State. PUBLIC HEARINGS Public hearings will be held across the state in June 2008. All hearings begin at 6:00 pm. Tuesday, June 10th, 2008: Mount Vernon, Best Western Cotton Tree 2300 Market Street, Mount Vernon, WA (360) 428-5678 Thursday, June 12, 2008: Port Angeles, Senior Community Center 328 E 7th St, Port Angeles, WA (360) 457-7004 Tuesday, June 17, 2008: Hoquiam, Timberland Library 420 7th Street, Hoquiam, WA (360) 532-1710 Tuesday, June 17, 2008: Issaquah, King County Library Service Center, Public Meeting Room (2A/B) 960 Newport Way NW, Issaquah, WA (425) 369-3200‎ Wednesday, June 18, 2008: Vancouver, Red Lion at the Quay 100 Columbia Street, Vancouver, WA (360) 694-8341 Wednesday, June 18, 2008: Ellensburg, Central Washington University, Student Union and Recreation Center, Room 137B 1007 N. Chestnut Street, Ellensburg, WA (509) 963-1111 Thursday, June 19, 2008: Olympia, Phoenix Inn Suites 417 Capitol Way N, Olympia, WA (360) 570-0555 Thursday, June 19, 2008: Okanogan, Sun Valley Restaurant 1 Appleway Road, Okanogan, WA (509) 422- 2070 Wednesday, June 25th, 2008: Spokane, Hilton Garden Inn 9015 W Sunset Hwy, Spokane, WA 99224 (509) 244-5866 Information about this proposal including the Threshold Determination and SEPA Checklist can be viewed on DNR’s website at: http://www.dnr.wa.gov/ResearchScience/Topics/Pages/NonProjectActions_PR.aspx Pursuant to WAC 332-41-504, this proposal was filed in the department’s SEPA Center at the Natural Resources Building, 1111 Washington Street SE, P.O. Box 47015, Olympia, Washington, on June 5, 2008. We will consider comments on this proposed DNS received by 4:30 p.m. on July 8, 2008. Comments should be submitted to the SEPA Center at, sepacenter@dnr.wa.gov or P.O. Box 47015, Olympia, Washington 98504-7015 for distribution to the responsible official. Please include the file number listed above on all comments.

Speaking of fun crags (we're talking about Peekaboo in another thread), my buddies and I went to Marley Crags yesterday and found it well worth a visit. Has anybody else around here enjoyed that place? The rock is really good and very different from anything else in Leavenworth. The climbs are short and some folks will find the hike to be more than it is worth, but this is an interesting place that is generally overlooked.

I wasn't the belayer and I wasn't there but she had tried to traverse off left a bit when she got scared.

Maybe it is the second pitch. You clip a bolt at a bulge and then step up but it isn't over and some slabby moves have you looking at a bad fall. I've climbed it a couple of times and the first time it didn't bother me but the second time I found it frightening right there. I think the second time I was more or less coming off the couch, and didn't trust my feet.

Thanks, Halifax. I'll check 'em out. I like the high top and good foot support the Kaukulator's provide -- I've got screwed up feet and they help. A guy at Second Ascent told me that there aren't any or many board lasted shoes anymore. Does anybody know if that is true?

I don't think it is all that sketchy there as I recall but I'd bring the cams. More worrisome is a slight runout on the first pitch where a friend of mine broke their leg. That is a fun set of climbs on Peekaboo Tower.

Maybe they should build a trailer park instead.

STP, no doubt about it, racial sensitivity is manufactured product and I am cynnical enough to recognize that in at least some iterations it has as much to do with feeling better about one's self as it does actually being sensitive to the needs or values of someone else. I am also able to poke fun of myself and my peers, hence above I noted that I go to a nearly all white church where we talk about diversity. And you are right, the west coast has plenty of racial hatred going on. Hell: the neighborhood I live in actually had written coveneants that didn't allow blacks, jews, or people of middle eastern origin until the 1970's or something, Seattle is nearly as segregated as any city in the south, and there are plenty of people of various races who live here that absolutely hate or fear those of particular other races. I don't think we have near the history or current level of tension between blacks and whites that Michigan does, however, and I am aware that Seattle has had major race riots against the Chinese, in particular. I don't accept DeChristo's argument that it is healthier to have racist attitudes more on the surface and actively expressed than it is to at least have folks generally recognizing that such attitudes are "politically incorrect," no matter how much disdain you may have for notions of political correctness. I'm not sure that rural people are any more sensitive or, to use Dechristo's word, "sensible" than urbanites, however. I think the attitudes and experiences are different, and their expression different and, because we started talking about this subject in the context of whether whites might not vote for Obama, I'd venture a guess that he will and already did win a greater percentage of the electorate in Seattle than the Tri Cities. I'm just guessing on that last point, though.

As you claim to be so better qualified, I'll leave that one for you.

Last I heard, free camping at Lovers Leap is no longer free. Does anybody know if this is true?

STP, I don't know about the Harvard Implicit Association Test but I am sure that we all do have a racial bias. Hell: I go to a 99% white church where we talk about diversity at least once a month. There goes my insensitivity that DeChristo pointed out once again. It'd probably be equally insensitive to point out that here in Seattle we elected an African American mayor in a big city that is overwhelmingly white (a first in the U.S., perhaps?). And I don't think that race was an issue in the election. I liked Mayor Rice because he made advertisements for KCMU, saying he liked Gas Huffer and Catt Butt. He apparently recognized a great radio station for what it was, and had fun celebrating that fact.

DeChristo, I grew up in Ann Arbor. I am well aware of the fact that it is a liberal city. My father was a professor there, and I was very proud of the fact that he marched with Martin Luther King in Selma. I was surprised when I typed "KKK Michigan" in google and a KKK demonstration in Ann Arbor was one of the first things that came up. (I thought to search this because I knew kids growing up who were very proud of the fact that the grand dragon lived in Mason County or some such place. You may debunk that memory and maybe it was only a local Klan hero or something - I don't know.) Anyway, Google revealed that Ann Arbor item and all kinds of other articles about a long history of KKK activity throughout southern Michigan. I used to vacation up north, too, and I am well aware of the different culture there. Oh, and by the way: here's the site where I found that Wallace had won that primary: WIkipedia My memory was correct that he had won an election in that period, though I apologize profusely that I insulted you by saying it was a national vote. My original argument was in no way hyperpole. Try using google some time. Search "racial tension Michigan" and search "racial tension Seattle." Try "Klu Klux Klan Michigan" and "Klu Klux Klan Seattle." See what comes up. I visit Michigan once in a while and I don't think the web is misleading on this point. Oh: and by the way: several days a month I work in an office where "access to justice" is part of our mission and half our service population are people of color. I may not be omniscient but I think I know a little bit about the sensitivities involved. I do, however, believe in saying what I think. And I think southern Michigan is more racist and racism is more visible there than in Seattle. NOwhere did I say or imply that a remedy to racism is to hide or ignore it.