Coldfinger Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 Howdy, so I could use a little help here.... I'm looking for crampons that are solid on glacier, snow and neve, have good antibots, don't weigh a ton and can climb well on alpine and waterfall ice (WI 4-5). And yes I have quite a bit of experience on ice and alpine climbs, so any technique pointers specific to these two are welcome. The Sabretooth looks sweet BUT I'm not sure about the front points on waterfall ice. It's not just that they're horizontal it also that they have no hooking teeth on the front points like all other ice pons do. Stainless does look nice. I have never used any version of these. I like the Sarken for those sweet front points but am not happy that you have to buy a whole new pon to replace worn frontpoints (though the old ones could be used for mountaineering). And yes having used Dartwins don't want those as they suck for all around use. From limited personal experience it seems like Sarkens do quite nicely on ice. So what do you all think about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 Saber has one more set of down points, equal length downs and climbs water ice (5+ and up) just fine. Gotta buy new fronts on either if you wear them out. Down side the Peztl levers suck, and will bite soft boots but the wires are skiiny ( i like) and some times break.(I don't like) The BD wires are thick (don't like) but never break and levers work on any boot. Bots are better on the Bds. Stainless is nice but nothing magic. Advantage for climbing? Sabertooth...one more set of points and equal length points. Seriously good design work on this one. No advantage on any type of ice to the teeth on the Sarken fronts..cosmetics only. Nice design but no real advantage to the vertical/horizontal combo of the front point design that I can discern climbing. G12s are very similar and I find them better on pure ice than the Sarken. BD slightly better than either. G12, Sarken and Sabers all climb about the same...advantages to Sabertooth (imo) as noted. Agreed on the Dartwin/Dart...suck for general use. Both are sport 'pons that lost a set of points to save weight...bad design imo...as much as I like them for weight. Any of the three generics climb better. The Sabers much better. Bunch more about 'pons on my blog. Stripped LWT Sabertooths on my Spantiks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 22, 2010 Author Share Posted April 22, 2010 Thanks, that's an interesting setup Dane, that a Neve Pro heel? Any chance of getting the heel piece from BD directly instead of spending $$ on a whole set? Seems great for long ice routes in the Andes, no need for bots there. I've got short feet so I've also been known to cut the linking bar down. I'm probably going to cut BD's toe bail strap off too. I tend to pound the bail with the hammer tool to fit it to my boots, so the thicker BD bail should be a plus. Had a G14 bail pop on me once, so I'm real careful fitting now. I'm also very big on Frenching my way up (or stemming) any time I can, so good underfoot points--point taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 You can order the heel pieces as a stripped spare part from BD customer service. Fairly common mod. Then just add what you need from your steel set up. I was thinking it was my bad knee this winter on moderate ice till I switched from Dartwins to the Sabertooth for a lap on Carlsberg. Amazed at just how much more stable and secure the "old" style 'pons felt and climbed. Wish they made a Sabertooth with the 2 Cyborg fronts for Alaska. I cut my link bars down as well. Depending on the boot size..the asymmetrical bar can really improve the over all fit. I generally use Petzl front bails for fit. Lost the bail straps long ago no matter what crampon i use. I use the asym bars on my Trangos but not on the Spantiks. Pic is on Trangos, 'pon much better centered on boot, with the bar marked for cutting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 22, 2010 Author Share Posted April 22, 2010 Well I'm sold on the Sabers, just happens I've got a spare pair of Petzl bails, I'll call BD in the a.m. about the heel pieces. One thing I really liked about the Petzl line was being able to swap front ends, but your Saber kit looks like it'll cover everything I'll be facing and hard to beat 25 oz! Thanks for the beta on the bots, they're pretty damn important for Wyoming spring conditions. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 No worries, hope it helped. Be curious as to how you like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 Should be fine, I'll just have to see how they fit Scarpa Invernos and Aku Spyders. I'll probably LOVE them if I can get the Neve heel. Won't be ice season for a while tho! BTW how can I tell if I have old Petzl bails? Mine are fairly new (2 or 3 years) and have angles instead of a smooth curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Sorry, I've no clue on old or new bails. I got all my spares last year from Petzl and all have angles. The only issue with the smaller Petzl bail wire is they seem to work harden over a couple hundred days of actual climbing. At least that is the current theory on Petzl stainless wire and why it breaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJaso Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Camp Vector Nanotech are solid and configurable between mono and dual froint points and readily field matainable. There is also a heal spike option too. They weigh 31oz but for that kind of money it's good to have options for waterfall, mixed, etc.... I'm just saying.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Vector? Same issue as the other sport crampons...Vector lacks a middle set of down points simply to save weight. Even DR found the frames flexed on the Vectors in his R&I review. Poor choice as an all around 'pon imo. No bots available and cookie cutters need bots more than any other design pattern. And the BD lwt combi is a full 5oz lighter. And only 2oz heavier per pair in full steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJaso Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Actually I have an older pair of vectors, but perhaps it's time to upgrade. I'm always looking for a reason to buy mo shiznits. The Vectors continue to be highly tweekable to accomodate a wide array of boots and climbing styles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 Well good luck getting just the Neve heelpice, BD said nope they don't sell just that, but then again I'm just Joe Blow. And Dane is 100% right on the underfoot points, kinda seems like modern climbers are in love with their frontpoints and don't really use the other 10 or 12 at all. I get a good laf watching my younger partners making things look harder than they already are. And I have notice modern pons are not as wide as they should be--nevermind the poor and/or missing underfoot points--just in the name of an ounce or two. Dartwins have great front points but they felt like skates for glacier, French, stemming, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 I too asked about the Neve heels "only" option again. I think that will be an easier option shortly. But hey what do I know, I'm just a Joe Blow as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Wouldn't Vasak vs Sabertooth be the better comparison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 You think? I don't see much difference between any of these designs. Some similarity on all these and some subtle differences as well. The Grivel Air Tech and the BD Sabertooth have similar length down points. Likely the Vasek fits in there as well. G12, Cassin and Sarken have similar over size fronts and angled downs. BD has stainless steel and is a true working 14 point crampon instead of 12 as the rest are. 14 down I think is a distinct advantage over all the rest but not a huge advantage like what all of these have over "sport" crampons like the Dartwin on moderate terrain. The Sarken has the combo horizontal/vertical fronts. Grivel Air Tech the widest foot print. Past the nuances they all climb pretty much the same on any terrain as far as I can tell. Some advantage of shorter points all around on mixed. Big first angled fronts have some advantage on moderate ice or softer snice/alpine ice. But not likely something you'd notice unless you have climbed on all sorts of crampon styles in lots of different conditions I suspect. Something inbetween? Maybe...I haven't used them on really hard Alaska or Canadian alpine ice to give an opinion. But really hard to compete with super thin, forged and easily replacable front points in those conditions. I would think better compared to the Sabertooth for the distinct differences of the two over the others listed above. But would like to hear anyone's comments either way. 10 pt "sport" 'pons...some more sporty than others. 12 point "tech" 'pons...and able to change roles easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 25, 2010 Author Share Posted April 25, 2010 (edited) Wouldn't Vasak vs Sabertooth be the better comparison? Yeah, Vasak, legendary steep ice pons. Please tell me your laptop has an interlock! Having traveled many miles with those underfoot, yeah they're great mountaineering crampons, but nothing you want on ice or mixed. The points and frame are all long, light, thin and flexy in the name of saving weight, that's why the Sarken has the weld on points it has (and maybe the recall). I can flex the vasak frontpoints with my thumb and one finger and not much effort. Edited April 25, 2010 by Coldfinger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 30, 2010 Author Share Posted April 30, 2010 Just got the Sabers, thanks Dane for the good call! Very impressed with the fit (absolutely perfect with both rockered pairs of boots) and quality finish. Even more impressed by how well the 12 bottom points cover the edges of the soles. Petzl bails are an upgrade. The six front points are going to handle alpine mixed very well. Thanks all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 BD spare part for F10 (gold colored Neve) (available july 1st) New spare part added: SKU BD0400730000ALLS NEVE REAR RAIL NO HEELTHRW F10 Stripped ST with Neve heel. Heel available as part July 1 from BD customer service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 30, 2010 Author Share Posted April 30, 2010 Woo Hoo!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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