AdventureRun Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Hi all, I stumbled onto this board when it continually came up in my furious Googling about climbing and reading Dane's reviews. I want to get some advice about mountaineering double boots. I live in the North East and have done winter hikes and camping in the White Mountains in my ill-fitting pair of Koflach Arctis Expe 's. They definitely did the trick in keeping me warm and dry, but I bought them 8 years ago, and the liners are getting beat up. I'm finally setting my sights on bigger peaks after a great Teton trip this summer and am starting ice climbing this winter too. I am taking IMG's 7-day Denali prep seminar on Rainier this winter, so I've been shopping around for a new double boot for it. I'm kind of in analysis paralysis right now, so I'm looking for input. I had initially planned on getting a new pair of Koflach AE's, but then I tried on Scarpa Omega's and my feet almost immediately rejoiced and made the AE's feel like concrete blocks. Unfortunately I just don't have a Scarpa foot, and there were some fit issues that I thought could lead to problems in a prolonged climb. Since then, I've been researching boots much to my detriment. What would you guys recommend for somebody that will be spending a lot of winter time in the White Mountains, doing some ice climbing, and taking an occasional trip to the Pacific Northwest and Alaska (maybe 1-2x/year)? It needs to be a double boot as IMG requires it for that particular seminar, and I'd be hesitant to take a single boot on a week-long trip anyway. I've thought of the Koflach Degree, but that'd mean I'll need new boots if/when I go to higher altitudes. I've thought of the Baruntse (mostly off Dane's review), but I don't want it to be overkill for 95% of the things I'd be doing. That said, it'd be cheaper to get Baruntse's now instead of another cheaper double boot now, maybe a single later, and then a Baruntse caliber boot when I go high. Sorry this is a meandering post, but it's indicative of my thought process right now. Any help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzak00 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Get a pair of Baruntses or Spantiks, if they fit. You'll want these for Alaska anyway, and it's a bit silly to have two pairs of double boots in your situation. For other cold uses, Baturas are great, Nepals will last longer but won't climb as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcap Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 +1 on Spantiks or Baruntse's. Also, try on the Scarpa Phantom 6000 if you can. I know you had issue with the Omega/Alpha, but the Phantom does fit differently. I have a 'Sportiva' foot and Scarpa's usually don't fit. However, I couldn't stop heel slip in the Spantik's - shell would not lace tight enough. Phantom 6k's are perfect. Barunste's fit well too, but not an precise as the Phantoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureRun Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 Cool. Thanks for the replies. The Phantoms are on my radar too. I'll order a couple pair of Baruntse to see how they fit, and if it's not great, I'll try the Phantoms. gcap, out of curiousity what was your problem with the other Scarpa's? For me, it was the very rear of my arch where it meets the heel had some pain/abnormal pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNumberNine Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Why not replace the liners in your arctic exp boots with an intuition liner like their "Denali" liner? They are super light, don't absorb water, and should be plenty warm for an early season Rainier climb. Throw some overboots on that set up and you're set for Denali. The Spantik and Baruntse are nice and fancy but they're going to be quite a purchase and not so great for mid/late season cascade climbing where there's an approach on trail. Spantiks seem to get eaten up easily if they're not being used exclusively on snow. Truth is, it's nice to have a boot for a specific application. I have scarpa invernos for early season climbing and big, snowy, cold mountains. Used them on Denali with a set of 40 below overboots and was dialed. Sportiva Nepal Evos for late season climbing and more technical rock/snow/mixed climbing. It helps to have a quiver. Edited October 30, 2012 by TheNumberNine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaleHoopes Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Baruntse's are nice. I own them and took em to Denali with great success. Have also ice climbed in them at Ouray and Baker, have climbed Rainier multiple times in them. The upper part of the boot is getting kind of flexible with all that use. What size are your AEs? I have a pair of Denali Intiution liners that fit a size 10.0 AE. I'd be willing to let you have them for half of what you'd pay for new. They've only been molded once and used twice (like brand new). PM me if interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureRun Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Thanks for the replies. TheNumberNine, I sized my AE's a little too large when I got them as a total rookie. I have a good amount of space in the heel when I just have my foot in the shell without the liner. They are size 11's, and I'm probably a size 10.5 (same shell as 11 anyway, right?) or size 10. Without tightening them almost uncomfortably tight, I have a good amount of foot movement. Luckily my feet can take a beating, so I don't blister often, but why put up with that? I want to test different sized shells out, but the closest place with AE's in my size around here is a 5 hour round trip away. I figure if I get a new shell, I may as well see what my options are that may out-perform the AE's. Make sense? Cale, thanks for the offer. Depending on what I end up going with, I may take you up on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaleHoopes Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 No problem! Just let me know. I have gone through all of this before, so I feel your pain. My boots did well on Denali - however, I feel like the Baruntse's need to get retied often if you put it through a mix of technical/low-angle work all in the same push. Otherwise, you'll have problems with it tipping over when trying to plant crampons. Good luck and let me know if I can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I've got the new Scarpa 6ks and like them a lot. I have to cinch down the strap across the ankle a lot to prevent heel lift when skiing in them, but the are solid boots and nicely low volume. Super super warm (even in -40 in the Ruth...) to the point that I've had to stay with thin wool socks and change them out often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Kinda sounds like there is no answer if you are looking for "one pair" to do two different things: Alaskan mountaineering and technical ice climbing. Think you'll find out doubles are a big impediment on ice compated with singles. So....... If you think the majority of your actual climbing will be in the NE and lower 48 (mainly winter) just find the cheapest, well fitting winter single boot (i. e. Nepal top) and start there. Single boots that are well insulated and with a toe bail platform will work really well. As for the course, if you are NOT set on a ton of Alaska trips, either rent boots or try Intuition liners. I have a pair of Omegas, two pieces of advice; one is I got the pre Intuition liners and even then they went from uncomfortable to great once the liners were professionally fit and baked and two is if you want to do Denali, you can mate them with overboots. I would find a professional ski boot fitting shop with the oven and caps and ask them; you might be able to get by with new liners in the old shells, especially if you are not planning on a ton of time at high altitude. Btw if you ski a ton you might look at a plastic tour boot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaleHoopes Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I don't disagree with ColdFinger. While I bought my Baruntse's with that in mind (both mountaineering & technical ice), I find that working in the Baruntse's with a lot of mountaineering actually compromised it's technical ability some. Mountaineering on those boots & climbing technical ice worked ok on those boots when new. Now 3 seasons in, the upper part of the boot is getting so flexible that it's hard to keep the boot stiff enough to make it comfortable on technical ice. I have to re-lace the boots a bunch during the day when climbing technical ice. All of it makes me want to get a boot like the Batura 2.0s and keep my Baruntse's for mountaineering. The Baruntse is an excellent mountaineering boot and not bad on technical ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Now 3 seasons in, the upper part of the boot is getting so flexible that it's hard to keep the boot stiff enough to make it comfortable on technical ice. I have to re-lace the boots a bunch during the day when climbing technical ice. All of it makes me want to get a boot like the Batura 2.0s and keep my Baruntse's for mountaineering. Some perspective? If you think a well worn Barunste is soft, then a Batura new out of the box is going to feel like a bed room slipper. And it will only get softer. Until the newest Batura 2.0 the midsoles were virtually the same on the Batura and Baruntse. The ankle support is not. The Baruntse is stiffer (new or well worn) than a Scarpa 6000 and not as stiff as a Spantik. Which is why the Baruntse makes a better technical boot than the Spantik IMO. Evan is right, for technical climbing a single boot is much easier to deal with. Less volume/bulk is one the other is because single boots generally have a softer flexing ankle. Nepal Evo is an exception..which is much more comparable to the Baruntse upper cuff. Easy to climb pure ice in a rigid ski boot with a rigid cuff if you only use your front points. Two kinds of ice climbing. Endurance ice like you get in the alpine and technical ice like you get at Bozeman. Spantik works OK to ski in and is wonderful on the calves in Alaska or the Alps, aka endurance ice. Pretty much suck at Bozeman. 6000, Baruntse are well proven in Alaska as well. For any place warmer any decent single boot will work. I really like the LA Sportive Trango Silver bullet. But tough to dry out for sure. Right now for anything cold enough I am using a 6000 with a Baruntse liner. I like the warmth and low over all weight of that set up. They are also easier to get in and out of in that combo. For warmer ice stuff I use a Phantom Ultra or a Batura 2.0. All three are much softer in the ankle than my well worn Baruntses. The 2.0 has a much more rigid honey comb carbon midsole than either Scarpa. But the Scarpa's offer a bit more ankle support which I find very useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I wanted to add this in another post as it is more on point for the OP. And thanks for reading the blog! You have a winter seminar coming up. I spend a lot of time in winter boots and every winter there is some break in for my feet and ankles. And most of these boots I have worn now for a few years. The boots don't break in, your feet and ankles just get use to them. Knowing that (if you accept the comment) you have a couple of options. Buy good stuff now and get use to it...week on Rainier and a Denali trip a year from now? You won't get "use" to them i na week. And you'll need some moleskin I suspect. Knowing what I think I know I'd rent the doubles. Buy a decent single and break boot and personage in as required. Buy doubles when you have to. New singles when they come out next spring. Batura or the even lighter Scarpa Rebel Ultra are both worth looking at. They keep getting better every season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaleHoopes Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Dane! Thanks for your responses. That's some great perspective because what's interesting is that that flexible upper doesn't feel totally horrible when I'm on the ice, but feels horrible if I'm trying to do something very low angle on water ice. So, I probably just need to work on my technique a bunch. I'm taking my Baruntse's to Ouray but I'm gonna try as many singles as I can at the festival and maybe rent some Batura's or Nepal Evo's. We'll see. Thanks for the input. I also agree BTW, the boots don't break in, your feet get used to em. I had my Baruntse's boot fitted at Sturtevant's and still love them greatly as a wonderfully warm mountaineering boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureRun Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 Thanks again for the replies. I appreciate the insight from folks a lot more experienced with the equipment than I am. I think I may end up getting the Baruntse's. I have a hook up to get them for under $500, so it may be too good of a deal to pass up. I just have to make sure they fit right. If they don't, I'll try the Phantom 6000's. If I end up really taking to ice climbing, I'll get a pair of single leathers for next season. I completely agree about not "breaking in" the double boots, and your body just getting used to them. I find that to be the case with a lot of things in the endurance realm, and while I'm a relatively inexperienced mountaineer, I have plenty of ultra endurance event and training experience. That's why my plan was to head the White Mountains as soon as we get a lot of snow (we are actually getting a ton this week) at least 2x/month for some sustained climbing/hiking in them with a heavily weighted pack. Once it snows around my home, I'll be out on the trails at least 1x/week here too. I'm a bit hesitant to rent boots. If it was just a regular overnight climb, I'd be fine with the idea. This is a 7-day seminar though, and if my feet aren't liking the rentals, that will be a horrible 7 days. Last time I took untested footwear out was in a 24-hour adventure race in the winter. I picked up a midfoot sprain, a pair of crutches, and weeks of inactivity for my effort after only 15 hours. I told myself I'd never do something like that again and that I'd properly test and vet gear that I use. And Dane, keep up the good work with the blog. It's a great resource to have available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureRun Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Boom. I elected a pair of Baruntse's today. Should be here by the end of the week. These will make me climb like Ueli Steck, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzak00 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Boom. I elected a pair of Baruntse's today. Should be here by the end of the week. These will make me climb like Ueli Steck, right? No, for that you need the Steck limited edition of the Scarpa Phantom 6000. The Baruntses are far too heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureRun Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Damn. I'll return all my MH Ueli Steck gear since it's a lost cause now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jg_eddie Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Dane pointed me towards the Barutse two seasons ago and I have had great success around town as well as the AK Range. The biggest surprise for me is how well they perform on the technical side of things. I actually prefer them for ice climbing for up to WI5 and they dont have any issues with mixed up to M7. Solid boot, if only the toe area was a bit taller they would be even better. And the pinky toe gets sore after front pointing for a few days on a big route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureRun Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Thanks again for the help. I got them today, but I think I need to size down to 44 from the 44.5's that I got. I have about an inch room at the front of the liner. Too much right? Strangely I don't seem to get heel lift when I cinch everything down though. They are extremely comfortable boots compared to my AE's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 The Baruntse/Spantik and 6000 shells only come in full sizes, no matter what the box sez. The inner boots get sized or molded accordingly to fit the 1/2. If you have a full inch you can likely go down a full size to the next smaller shell. If it feels a little tight you can always mold the inner and get some more room with the added toe caps during fitting. "The Baruntse liner will shrink up a full size after being heated so you might want to order it one full size up if you are going to use a Baruntse liner in a Spantik. There are no true half sizes in the Baruntse liner. A 44.5 and the 45 are the same. 43.5 and 44 are the same size." More here: http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/double-boot-inner-boots-molding-fitting.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureRun Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 Excellent info, Dane. Thank you. I just ordered a pair of 44's since that will have the 43.5-44 liner/shell. I'll try them on side by side with the 44.5/45's to see which I'll keep. Honestly even with all the extra toe space in the 44.5/45's, I get very little if any heel lift, but I want to be sure since these things aren't cheap. These boots feel really good on my feet. Thanks for steering me towards them. I'm very happy with the purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 No worries, glad to help. Remember the heel hold down is simply a function of the excellent lace system, pre molded heel pocket and softer cuff on the Baruntse. Having the boot too big length wise is not a good thing as the liners do compact over time. Then you may well run out of heel hold down. Best way to compare boots for size is by doing what you have done...get them both in the same room and try the different sizes out for a few days. Best to go with the smallest shell possible in these boots as long as you aren't getting toe bump in crampons or going down hill. The smaller shells will always climb better. Some of the info I have posted here and on the blog is a little confusing I think. But when you mold the inner (if you mold it) the liner swells up which allows your foot to compress it for a better fit. Done right (and it took me several tried with a good boot fitter) the inner gets compressed and will fit your foot perfectly with little sock. Easier to dry (or wash) lwt socks in the mtns than a thicker pair. The compressed foam of a properly heat fitted inner won't compact as much over time (since you have already done it in the heavy wear spots) which helps on long trips like Denali or on lots of technical climbing (think Ice park) where the boots are intentionally laced tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureRun Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 Looks like the 44's are definitely the size for me. Unfortunately the 44's I got shipped to me appear to be defective. I'm not sure if the left sole is warped or if there is a cleat sticking up too high, but the boot wobbles when it's flat on the ground. Every step I take forces my foot to suppinate. On top of that, the La Sportiva insoles were missing. It'd be nice to use them as a template when cutting my Superfeet. Back to the never-ending hunt for boots! BTW, I'm taking your advice, Dane, and using the medium weight smartwool hiking sock. I had used their heavy weight mountaineering sock previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureRun Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 Dane, Cale, or anybody else, I just have one more question. I went through 3 pairs of Baruntse trying to get the right size and then away from a defective sole (major wobble). This is pair #3. The fit is great and there is no wobble. However there is somebody I'm not sure if I should be concerned about. It appears the sealant they use to seal the rubber to the boot went a little long. It's visible on the boot. Is this a defect that I should exchange, or should this boot be fine in your opinion? Here are some pics. The water in them are just from me submerging them in water to see if they are water tight. It's been a huge pain to get these things right, so I'm a little beat down. I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing by keeping them. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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