Rafael_H Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Osama Bill... What a guy. I wonder how far one like that can go? What if he was lobotomized and then directed to fight the Wilderness Fees But seriously: 1. Definitely shouldn't have used private property silently. Should not do it in the future either. From non-climbing owner's or any official manager's prospective restricting is the best: simple, no headaches and potential misinterpretation. 2. Could Access Fund purchase the cliffs only and establish a small trail easment, we'd all help build a single trail? What and how something like this was done in Squamish, at Smoke Bluffs? I wish all the bolt/no-boilt energy was directed towards access or improved, "advanced" access/ownership issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 FOUND on certain holds at Frenchmans Coulee and Smith Rocks, SUSPICIOUS WHITE POWDER Better evacuate the place it could be ANTHRAX! "If someone reports white powder found on a doughnut in a Tim Horton's we are going to rate its threat hazard very low" - an unidentified member of the BC Hazardous Materials Response team discussing Anthrax Scares on the radio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Fitz Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 Hi all: I volunteer as the Access Fund's regional coordinator for Washington. Although the temptation is sometimes great, I haven't posted on CC until now largely out of concern about maintaining credibility with the whole spectrum of climbers. Anyway, I tried to post a reply re: the liability issue a few days ago, but ran up against a little roadblock with registration. So, here's my input, even if it is a little late. In real life, I'm an attorney (and a government attorney at that). Put simply, in my opinion the potential liability concerns of the woman Bill Robins contacted are no greater than those of the state Dep't of Fish & Wildlife for the cliffs across the Coulee; or State Parks for the climbing at Peshastin, Beacon Rock, and much of Index & Exit 38; or the state DNR at Little Si; or the Forest Service for the climbing around Leavenworth. (FYI, most of the Lower Town Wall at Index is private land held by a woman who inherited it.) Washington has a recreational use immunity statute that shields both public AND private landowners from liability for injuries incurred by persons who recreate on their lands. The whole point of the statute is to encourage landowners to open up their lands to recreation by removing the fear of liability, and public and private owners are treated exactly alike. While the statute doesn't guarantee a landowner won't ever get sued, the statute provides a basis to get a suit dismissed early on. And despite more than sixty years of history and thousands of climbers and routes in Washington, I'm not aware of any landowner, public or private, being sued over a climbing injury. The exception to the liability shield is for injuries arising from a dangerous condition on the property that is: 1)latent (i.e., the danger not readily obvious); 2) artificial (i.e., a manmade, as opposed to natural, condition), and 3) KNOWN TO THE LANDOWNER, who then fails to warn users of the hidden danger. The obvious examples in the climbing context are fixed anchors. However, so long as a landowner takes no part in maintaining fixed hardware and disavows any responsibility for the integrity of the hardware, the landowner is unlikely to have any inside knowledge that (to make up an example) the 3rd bolt on the (now former?) .10d route at Winter Walk is a time bomb. As far as Bill's actions go, I know the issue is going to be taken up by the Frenchman Coulee Climbers' Coalition (FCCC). Both of the guys responsible for the routes at Winter Walk have been in touch with me and they've agreed to not restore the routes unless and until things get cleared up. I encourage anyone with an interest in this issue--and Frenchman Coulee issues generally--to get involved with the FCCC. There's a lot of shit to clean up out there (literally), but if climbers step up to become true stewards of the area, the access situation should be OK. Andy Fitz fitlan@home.com (253) 761-7866 PS: I'm leading a trail project at the Bend (Tieton River) on November 10 to finish up a project started last year. Please get in touch with me if you're interested in helping out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 Mighty big of you, Andy, to put your "credibility with the entire spectrum of climbers" on the line and illuminate the subtle colors of this complex issue. And, to the sprayers of this site, let's not fudge this up! We've got a real player contributing here, and we should extend our warmest welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 quote: Originally posted by LUCKY: I was going to let this thread die because it pissed me off and was putting me in a bad head space .But I see Will has drug it to the surface again, same shit different day Not dragging it up, I e-mailed him the first day you posted to get some perspective on the issue. Someone posted wanting Bill to post here and address the issue. I simply copied what he sent to me (and posted to the Vanatage e-group). Thought I was supplying some info you guys wanted, Bill is apparently not a registered user on CC and did not wish to register just to post the info. So please, don't drag me into this one because as I said before I HAVE NADA TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gapertimmy Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 timmy ho's, a canadian treat, heh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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